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User since:
Jun 9th, 2011
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Master2B said 2 months ago

Nike Oregon Project article

Very interesting read from the NY Times on the Nike Oregon Project

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/sports/nike-oregon-project-alberto-salazar-dathan-ritzenhein.html?_r=2

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Andrew Jones said 2 months ago

    Interesting, but no real surprises or epiphanies here.

    We currently have numerous ex-NOP athletes and staff painting the same picture of AlSal.. I think we can call that a consensus. And that picture is consistent with Salazar's MO his whole athletic life: try to get an edge in any way possible -- even if it means finding possible loopholes, and then pushing what is allowable -- according to the rulebook -- right to very limit.

    Ethically, most of us have trouble with this approach, and would prefer to see a respect for the intent of rules like the TUE regulations. Dicing with personal health like is being done at NOP is unpalatable to most of us, but in the high-stakes game of high-level athletics, it seems like the rewards outweigh the risks in many cases.

    Particularly galling to me are the hollow protestations and propoganda of Dr. Brown. An endocrinologist who is overprescribing medications (given to those who are likely unafflicted by the conditions the meds are to address) should be, to my mind, barred for life as a medical professional.

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 2 months ago

    Quoting: Andrew Jones
    "Interesting, but no real surprises or epiphanies here.

    We currently have numerous ex-NOP athletes and staff painting the same picture of AlSal.. I think we can call that a consensus. And that picture is consistent with Salazar's MO his whole athletic life: try to get an edge in any way possible -- even if it means finding possible loopholes, and then pushing what is allowable -- according to the rulebook -- right to very limit.

    Ethically, most of us have trouble with this approach, and would prefer to see a respect for the intent of rules like the TUE regulations. Dicing with personal health like is being done at NOP is unpalatable to most of us, but in the high-stakes game of high-level athletics, it seems like the rewards outweigh the risks in many cases.

    Particularly galling to me are the hollow protestations and propoganda of Dr. Brown. An endocrinologist who is overprescribing medications (given to those who are likely unafflicted by the conditions the meds are to address) should be, to my mind, barred for life as a medical professional."


    Bang on, Andrew. I think less of Salazar's coaching acumen now than ever (and I was always a skeptic). Remove Nike's vast resources and Salazar's resort to the pharmacological grey zone (increasingly, black zone) and what do you really have? It's sometimes forgotten that Salazar actually failed pretty dramatically in his first go-around as a coach for Nike (I'd heard at the time that he was simply too personally off-putting for most of the athletes with whom he worked). The luck of his personal access to Phil Knight, however, meant that he got a second chance, and with even more resources. Without the whole Nike thing, Salazar would be the crank that he actually is, toiling on the margins of the sport-- and that's if he could find anyone at all willing to put up with his dodgy or crackpot theories (e.g. remember the equestrian "posture harness" he tried to get young Mary Cain to wear?).

    This post was edited by Oldster 2 months ago . 
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  • nurmi User since:
    Oct 8th, 2014
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    Nurmi said 2 months ago

    Question is: how about the athletes? At this point, nobody can confess ignorance about his methods and lack of ethics. Aren't those who decide to work with him as devoid of ethics as he is?

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    Anonymous said 2 months ago

    imagine Guelph, Laval or Queens coach with all that money?

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 2 months ago

    Quoting: Nurmi
    "Question is: how about the athletes? At this point, nobody can confess ignorance about his methods and lack of ethics. Aren't those who decide to work with him as devoid of ethics as he is?"


    Pertinent question. I think the quotes from the athletes in the piece (and their obvious fear of speaking other than when under subpoena), indicate the bind they felt there were in. But I wonder, not about the athletes, but about Steve Magness, who agreed to do the L-Carnitin infusion knowing (it can be reasonably assumed) that he was acting as a guinea pig for athletes. Granted, he did eventually break rank and tell all (or some). But, he certainly underplayed the degree of his own culpability at the time. The phrase "ass covering" comes to mind. The dude appears to have been an amoral careerist until his "road to Damascus" moment a couple of years ago. Makes one wonder whether Nike was correct when it said they fired him, rather than the other way around. Very few untainted here, it would increasingly seem.

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    Anonymous said 2 months ago

    Oldster,
    Any idea what AC thinks of Levins being involved in the NOP now that there's this mess with Salazar and USADA?

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 month ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "Oldster,
    Any idea what AC thinks of Levins being involved in the NOP now that there's this mess with Salazar and USADA?"


    No, and I don't expect they would have an issue. They have shown a willingness to work with-- or see top Canadian athletes work with-- some dodgy people, drugs-wise, in the past.

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    Laval Fanboy #1 said 1 month ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "imagine Guelph, Laval or Queens coach with all that money?"



    That would make epic parties!!!!

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  • c-kelsall User since:
    Mar 28th, 2017
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    C.Kelsall said 1 month ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "Oldster,
    Any idea what AC thinks of Levins being involved in the NOP now that there's this mess with Salazar and USADA?"


    I highly doubt Levins is involved. If he has been, it has not been consistent. I think he is too principled.

    I have been following this long before it made any press. I could have written a long article about it before the Guardian/NY Times/ etc got hold of it, but didn't have the complete info nor the resources to pay for a very expensive law firm.

    During the 2012 London Olympics, a little birdie from the US told me that WADA was quietly investigating/questioning Rupp and Farah for what at the time was some amino acid that the person wasn't sure what the name was. He said it sounded like a Finnish name. Turns out to be Carnitine or L-Carnitine which would be the synthetic version I think.

    At that time that same little birdie told me that the reason that the Kenyan men's 10,000m London Olympic trials were held in Eugene, was for large corporation or its team to control the outcome so that the "right" Kenyans made London - the ones that could be beaten and or paid off.

    It wasn't long after that that an American massage therapist called me to say that he worked for them and it was a sudden hiring sort of out of nowhere. When he went to Europe with them, they completed their training, then left without notice. The deal was to phone the MT in the hotel and say, "hey we forgot a bunch of our stuff like wallet, some clothes...oh and don't take this the wrong way, but in the fridge is a package, can you bring that for us....it isn't what it looks like, but we left some needles and a prescription (mislabelled)"

    So what they did was put the MT at risk and made him the conduit. It wouldn't take long for one to figure out who I am referring to. He is semi-aggressively angry in a public way, kinda snarly.

    This birdie told me - this is back to 2012 again - that AS was figuring out the line to cross and straddling it with all sorts of questionable products and experimenting on each other. Interesting that Rupp beat the field that he did and Farah, his training mate, is the only one who beat him in the Oly 10,000m. Kinda suspicious, don't ya think?

    If you look at the finish line photo, the Africans look like they are tempo-ing the race - here is an Olympic medal race and they are not trying their hardest. Someone suggested that everyone got paid or several got paid.

    This was all fantastical hearsay at the time, but almost exactly what this little birdie told me came out in the press later. Except for the trials in Eugene part.

    AS has turned down opps to interview. The MT, however, wanted the interview and gave me all sorts of other deets, but - again - no real budget for legal backing.

    Talked to Magness before he talked to the Guardian and he was careful to say nothing. I am now surprised he didn't crack because I was asking the same questions that the Guardian would later ask him.

    A former shoe designer at big corporation has said little things like, "I detest that company for what they do," but refused to say anything because he is scared shitless about being sued or worse.

    Big corporation is scary.

    Ever watch George Carlin? "The big corporations are the government. They long since got them paid off and silenced." I always thought that that was fantastical paranoia, but not that farfetched.

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    Andrew Jones said 1 month ago

    I would love to think -- or even better, know -- that Cam is clean, but the pressure that was placed on Ritz was immense. And Ritz always came off as a nice, decent fellow, so who knows?

    George Carlin was genius, I think.

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    Just No said 1 month ago

    This idea that the 10k final in London was thrown by the Africans is completely ridiculous. Please stop.

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  • c-kelsall User since:
    Mar 28th, 2017
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    C.Kelsall said 1 month ago

    Well it used to be ridiculous sounding. But no I am not going to stop because you cannot handle the (possible) truth. See it was ridiculous at one time to think a whole nation could be banned (Russia) in fact, while Coe campaigned to be president, he basically said the "please stop" type of comment - as the idea was preposterous. When I wrote "To the IAAF, ban Russia now" I had more "please stop" emails than I can count. Not one person emailed to say, "hey, good call - a year before they did it.".

    It was preposterous at one time that Lance Armstrong was cheating and preposterous at one time that AS would experiment on his own son or that BALCO existed - that was a mind-blower - doesn't sound that ridiculous now because it happened, but BALCO was a "please stop" moment x 5.

    What about East German women getting sex changes because the drugs they were doing, made them start to become men anyway? That was a "please stop" moment. How about the suicides in the NFL players in retirement? Just keeps happening.

    Jama Aden in Spain goes under surveillance for an entire month. That is a long time - 24 hours a day - this is expensive and an operation that is serious. WADA and the IAAF find taking testing gear into the depths of Kenya and Ethiopia expensive, so haven't done it much, therefore they run free on drugs in training. Yet the Spanish Police had with them testing equipment, waited until 22 athletes were inside the hotel and raided the place and tested 2o of 22 athletes. The police must have had all sorts of good reason to strike. You don't just pull a raid out of thin air on guesswork.

    Somehow, magically, everyone got off like it didn't happen.

    Yeah. Please stop.

    FIFA match fixing, NBA reffing fixing....those were "please stop" moments too.

    What about the dynamic father-son duo Papa Masata and Lamine Diack extorting athletes to cover up positive tests or bribing nations who want to host major games? "please stop" at one time.

    Coe was on the FIFA ethics commitee once. Wrap your head around that.

    The Russian anti-doping's head doctor....ANTI-DOPING - doping the athletes....how f'kd up is that?

    The idea that big corporation can approach some Africans and offer too much money to not go 100% is very possible. In fact highly likely given the little taste of corruption and cheating I indicated above.....

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  • master2b User since:
    Jun 9th, 2011
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    Master2B said 1 month ago

    Quoting: Just No
    "This idea that the 10k final in London was thrown by the Africans is completely ridiculous. Please stop."


    Why is this ridiculous? It's quite plausible considering the Kenyan trials were held in Oregon, the home of Nike. I just can't believe it hasn't been brought up before now.

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  • athletics-illustrated User since:
    Mar 28th, 2017
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    Athletics Illustrated said 1 month ago

    Looks like the site is waiting for a long post I made in response to Anonymous saying, "please stop".

    When I use Twitter to login and let it authorize the app - depends on which Twitter account I am currently logged into whether my account is verified....ugh.

    Anyway, when you see it, add this:

    I was interviewing a London Olympian who medalled and is Kenyan and asked, "why do you think the men's 10,000m trials were held in Oregon.?"

    The person replied, "no comment."

    Which I was going to publish, but decided to save this person's career and suggest they change the answer, which they did - about Nike being a great organizer.....

    Nike, eh? I thought.

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  • new-post-last-visitanonymous Anonymous
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    Jim said 1 month ago

    In the end it all comes down to this. I loved track and cross country. I no longer do. Every performance, event, race and athlete is guilty or at least suspect. It is a sad day for our sport.

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