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CIS men's 3000m 2017
Lap counter gone wrong. DISCUSSION: http://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Forum/usports-mens-3000m/14916/
Posted 6 years ago by Trackie | Source: harvey78928
User Comments
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354John Stevenson said 6 years ago
It was a great tactical race. If the Official screws up and the Bell sounds signifying last lap, clearly by time shouldn't Jack and Connor realized that there still was another lap to go?
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Matt said 6 years ago
That is absolute b.s. They are in the heat of the race at that point and have kicked it into gear. This is the nationals for crying out loud. How could this happen? The officials ripped that victory away from Black and should be ashamed. Bush league
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User since:
Jun 15th, 2016
Posts: 5Brad21 said 6 years ago
Someone raised the point earlier that the lap counter went from 8 to 6. From that point the guys were strategizing their finish by that. Watching it live (with the benefit of the clock in the corner of the screen) I wondered why Sheffar was going so early, but his finish was executed perfectly by what the race official was giving as the racers only feedback, the lap counter. The last 3, 2 laps they're not worried about their time or pace. It's a race with the other guy. Blame can only be put on the official.
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Matt
"That is absolute b.s. They are in the heat of the race at that point and have kicked it into gear. This is the nationals for crying out loud. How could this happen? The officials ripped that victory away from Black and should be ashamed. Bush league"
Thibeault still would have won either way. He looked relaxed behind Black and Sheffar who were kicking all out. I believe Black and Sheffar would have been 2nd/3rd though so it affected the podium but not the winner. Quote comment -
User since:
Sep 12th, 2014
Posts: 1guillaume86 said 6 years ago
Come on guys, do not blame the official. you are in charge of your own race when your racing. So Black and Sheffar, two 8 10 guys, are suddenly 7 40 guys !? Suddenly Diamond league contender!? Cmon man ! Thibeault would have win anyway
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354BC said 6 years ago
All the more reason to run for an American School. This is a total mickey mouse league!
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
You had one job...... COUNT AND RING THE DAMN BELL!! ONE JOB
This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Message from Moderator:Quote comment
You had two jobs. Count and ring the bell! And watch the finish line. Three jobs. You had three jobs...
If you have issues/questions please contact moderator@trackie.com. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: John Stevenson
"It was a great tactical race. If the Official screws up and the Bell sounds signifying last lap, clearly by time shouldn't Jack and Connor realized that there still was another lap to go?"
great job taking the official's side over your london western athletes. Really? Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: guillaume86
"Come on guys, do not blame the official. you are in charge of your own race when your racing. So Black and Sheffar, two 8 10 guys, are suddenly 7 40 guys !? Suddenly Diamond league contender!? Cmon man ! Thibeault would have win anyway"
I completely disagree. What is the point of having a lap counter if the responsibility is purely on them. It's the 3000m, not a 10k or half marathon. Pacing really goes out the window when you are in the lead pack on the last few laps. Ignorant to say that Thibeault would have won. I hope those counters never see an event again. They have one responsibility and are under no physical duress. The racers are full of adrenelaine and don't have the mental capacity at 190 BPM that a counter has a resting HR (which is why they have counters in the first place)! Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"You had one job...... COUNT AND RING THE DAMN BELL!! ONE JOB"
Ya moderator I agree it's ONE job not 3. That's like breaking down going to the bathroom as 1) pooping 2) wiping 3) flushing No that's all one job dudeThis post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Message from Moderator:Quote comment
It was a joke that apparently went right over your head. Never fear, I wasn't talking about whatever it is you're arguing about here.
If you have issues/questions please contact moderator@trackie.com. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: John Stevenson
"It was a great tactical race. If the Official screws up and the Bell sounds signifying last lap, clearly by time shouldn't Jack and Connor realized that there still was another lap to go?"
Because althetes finishing a 3k and sprint finish are going to be paying attention to that and not trying to win! :) Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Laval kid didnt kick because he knew they didnt just go through 2800 in 7:10 lol. It sucks the officials screwed up but its also on the athlete to be responsible for their own race. Dont leave your race in someone elses hands. If you cant count to 15 and you're relying on someone else to count your laps for you, than you accept the responsibility of relying on that person to me accurate. The best way to control the outcome of YOUR OWN race is to do it all yourself. The laval kid made the adjustment when he saw the clock and was aware of what was happening. It sucks the officials messed up but they didnt take the race away from Guelph and Western kid, those kids took the race away from themselves with the strategies they deployed.
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anon said 6 years ago
When the bell rings and the clock says 7:10, how do you know whether it's the clock or the bell that's incorrect?
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354john said 6 years ago
Imagine all the amount of work that went to in this race, sheffar and black thinking that they're kicking down for the U sports title.... this moment is gonna stay with them for a long time and it's sad. Personally they should of awarded black with the silver and sheffar with the bronze
This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Laval kid didnt kick because he knew they didnt just go through 2800 in 7:10 lol. It sucks the officials screwed up but its also on the athlete to be responsible for their own race. Dont leave your race in someone elses hands. If you cant count to 15 and you're relying on someone else to count your laps for you, than you accept the responsibility of relying on that person to me accurate. The best way to control the outcome of YOUR OWN race is to do it all yourself. The laval kid made the adjustment when he saw the clock and was aware of what was happening. It sucks the officials messed up but they didnt take the race away from Guelph and Western kid, those kids took the race away from themselves with the strategies they deployed."
this is false. Laval's whole coaching staff and athletes were aware of the mistake and proceeded to tell him to run the next lap. How can the athletes in the race be sure if the lap count is off or the clock is off? This is on the officials. The athletes shouldn't have to count their laps in a national race, come on.... Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: john
"Personally they should of awarded black with the silver and sheffar with the bronze"
Would that be at all fair to Bougnot or Seneca who were the 2nd and 3rd athletes to complete the 3000m distance? Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"this is false. Laval's whole coaching staff and athletes were aware of the mistake and proceeded to tell him to run the next lap. How can the athletes in the race be sure if the lap count is off or the clock is off? This is on the officials. The athletes shouldn't have to count their laps in a national race, come on...."
The Laval kid didnt kick, he ran through, whether he was told too then, he knew 7:10 wasnt a correct split for the bell otherwise the 8:06 PB and CLASS of the field would have outkicked those two. He caught the mistake and made the adjustment. It's always on the athletes. At the olympics, you dont have your coaches to help you on the track and you certainly will not train your whole life to leave things in the hands of a lap counter. If you are going to be a champion, you need to be responsible for your own race! Except the result based on the decisions you make. "They kicked because someone told them to" that basically what this is.......decide your own fate by understanding the sport a little more. It's a mistake both these athletes should learn from. Quote comment -
User since:
Jan 13th, 2013
Posts: 405mattnorminton said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Would that be at all fair to Bougnot or Seneca who were the 2nd and 3rd athletes to complete the 3000m distance?"
Totally agree with what you are getting at, a mistake was made by the official and I'm sure the official feels terrible and it really sucks for Jack S and Connor B but sometimes the officials get it wrong and can have an impact on the final result. Happens all the time in other sports. Officials are humans and humans make mistakes.
Shouldn't have happened but it did and it sucks for the couple of runners that didn't realize the mistake but sadly that's sport. And at the end of the day, it is just a sport (I know, easy for me to say when it wasn't me that was robbed of a USports medal). But lets get some perspective, this wasn't a surgery gone wrong that cost someone their life or lively hood. Both of these young men will bounce back and have more outstanding races in the future. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: mattnorminton
"Totally agree with what you are getting at, a mistake was made by the official and I'm sure the official feels terrible and it really sucks for Jack S and Connor B but sometimes the officials get it wrong and can have an impact on the final result. Happens all the time in other sports. Officials are humans and humans make mistakes.
Shouldn't have happened but it did and it sucks for the couple of runners that didn't realize the mistake but sadly that's sport. And at the end of the day, it is just a sport (I know, easy for me to say when it wasn't me that was robbed of a USports medal). But lets get some perspective, this wasn't a surgery gone wrong that cost someone their life or lively hood. Both of these young men will bounce back and have more outstanding races in the future."
You're right. These guys spend hours running, 7 days a week, doing doubles. How hard is it to flip a card from 14 to 1?I've certainly done it where runners are getting lapped and you have to keep track of runners with a different number of laps. It's not rocket science. And the officials were alerted to their error by numerous people and chose to ignore it. It's devastating for Black and Sheffar and inexcusable that the result of the protest was merely"Oops sorry". Black still got a gold medal as a team but Sheffar losing points (bare minimum 6 for 3 km and in his usual state points for 150o after having fastest actual 1500 going in) affected whole western men's team from getting a team medal. Do you think Black and Sheffar went into 150o after a good sleep and with confidence? No I don't think so. They're only human and I imagine they were pretty devastated. Life isn't always fair but who would think officials affect the outcome of a 3 km race? Usports you still have an opportunity to make your screw up up to these athletes. Don't make excuses and sweep your brutal error inder the table. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"It's devastating for Black and Sheffar and inexcusable that the result of the protest was merely"Oops sorry". .. Usports you still have an opportunity to make your screw up up to these athletes. Don't make excuses and sweep your brutal error inder the table."
Seriously, what specifically would you like them to do within the confines of the existing rules (not the rules you'd like to have existed prior to this incident)? What should have been the result of the protest, a re-run of the race? (A complete non-starter.)
There was a human screw-up and their races were negatively impacted.
But beyond apologizing and promising to put more effort into ensuring this sort of thing doesn't happen again, what can be done?
There's no rationale for arbitrarily handing out medals to people who didn't place top three (especially since that would mean taking away medals from those who did place top three). Quote comment -
User since:
Mar 9th, 2017
Posts: 15Jerry of the Day said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"You're right. These guys spend hours running, 7 days a week, doing doubles. How hard is it to flip a card from 14 to 1?I've certainly done it where runners are getting lapped and you have to keep track of runners with a different number of laps. It's not rocket science. And the officials were alerted to their error by numerous people and chose to ignore it. It's devastating for Black and Sheffar and inexcusable that the result of the protest was merely"Oops sorry". Black still got a gold medal as a team but Sheffar losing points (bare minimum 6 for 3 km and in his usual state points for 150o after having fastest actual 1500 going in) affected whole western men's team from getting a team medal. Do you think Black and Sheffar went into 150o after a good sleep and with confidence? No I don't think so. They're only human and I imagine they were pretty devastated. Life isn't always fair but who would think officials affect the outcome of a 3 km race? Usports you still have an opportunity to make your screw up up to these athletes. Don't make excuses and sweep your brutal error inder the table."
I just wanted to quote this so it would appear twice, good thinking my fellow Jerry.
#YvesHawking #SmartSundays #ftbThis post was edited by Jerry of the Day 6 years ago .Quote comment -
User since:
Jan 13th, 2013
Posts: 405mattnorminton said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous "You're right. These guys spend hours running, 7 days a week, doing doubles. "
Yes for sure they do, I don't think anyone has said otherwise.
Quoting: Anonymous "How hard is it to flip a card from 14 to 1?I've certainly done it where runners are getting lapped and you have to keep track of runners with a different number of laps. It's not rocket science. And the officials were alerted to their error by numerous people and chose to ignore it.."
I agree, not a had job and they shouldn't have made the mistake.
Quoting: Anonymous " It's devastating for Black and Sheffar"
Again, no argument here.
Quoting: Anonymous " and inexcusable that the result of the protest was merely"Oops sorry". "
So what do you propose here? Give out medals for the top 3 runners in the 2800m? Should they have used the runners 2800m times to figure out their 3k time and then insert them back into the results? How is simply giving Black and Sheffar 2nd and 3rd place fair to the guys who finished 2nd and 3rd in the actual 3k? Do you know for certain that both of these runners would have held on for a medal if the screw up hadn't happened?
Quoting: Anonymous "Black still got a gold medal as a team but Sheffar losing points (bare minimum 6 for 3 km and in his usual state points for 150o after having fastest actual 1500 going in) affected whole western men's team from getting a team medal."
Sorry but you don't know this for certain. Maybe he does, maybe he just runs poorly...
Quoting: Anonymous " Do you think Black and Sheffar went into 150o after a good sleep and with confidence? No I don't think so. They're only human and I imagine they were pretty devastated. Life isn't always fair but who would think officials affect the outcome of a 3 km race? Usports you still have an opportunity to make your screw up up to these athletes. Don't make excuses and sweep your brutal error inder the table."
So what is your ideal solution to this mistake? Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Solution said 6 years ago
Quoting: mattnorminton
"So what is your ideal solution to this mistake?"
They should have re-ran the race Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: mattnorminton
"So what is your ideal solution to this mistake?"
A public apology. Take responsibility officials. On this forum apologize to the two guys who lost out on us-ports medals because of your mistake. Acknowledge that they were racing well and that it was a card turner's fault that they didn't win a medal ( or for the pessimists a fair chance to win a medal).. The results will forever exclude their names but you can acknowledge their performance here and now.. Quote comment -
User since:
Oct 20th, 2014
Posts: 1083BestCoach said 6 years ago
How do you know?
Well you ran 3k XC in grade 8 and you have been running 3k races since then so seeing as this is not your first BBQ you GO BY FEEL.
Quoting: AnonQuote comment
"When the bell rings and the clock says 7:10, how do you know whether it's the clock or the bell that's incorrect?" -
User since:
Jun 21st, 2015
Posts: 72Beaner said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Ya moderator I agree it's ONE job not 3. That's like breaking down going to the bathroom as 1) pooping 2) wiping 3) flushing No that's all one job dude"
This comment is amazing #Lawyered Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354 -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
A mistake was made. That's all.
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Maybe have a card turner and a person standing by that checks/confirms the lap count is correct after the card is turned. Even so this type of error will happen again. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
The Ricky Martin background music definitely makes it worse....
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User since:
Jan 13th, 2013
Posts: 405mattnorminton said 6 years ago
Quoting: Solution
"They should have re-ran the race"
That's not a terrible idea, when would you rerun it? Quote comment -
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User since:
Jan 13th, 2013
Posts: 405mattnorminton said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"A public apology. Take responsibility officials. On this forum apologize to the two guys who lost out on us-ports medals because of your mistake. Acknowledge that they were racing well and that it was a card turner's fault that they didn't win a medal ( or for the pessimists a fair chance to win a medal).. The results will forever exclude their names but you can acknowledge their performance here and now.."
From what I understand, the officials apologized to all of the men's 3k runners at the end of the night. They know they screwed up and probably feel terrible about it. I don't think they purposely meant to screw anyone out of a medal or from scoring points for their team. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"A mistake was made. That's all.
Maybe have a card turner and a person standing by that checks/confirms the lap count is correct after the card is turned. Even so this type of error will happen again."
There were lap scorers (on the outside of the track). Based on the video, they appeared to have been aware the runners should not be finishing (they can be seen telling them to do another lap) but they should have been cross-checking with the lap counter throughout the race to ensure they were both on the same page/lap. This obviously wasn't done until at least the ringing of the bell. Quote comment -
User since:
Aug 1st, 2002
Posts: 2353john said 6 years ago
In a similar situation (officials error) at the NACAC XC junior boys race, a clear error by the officials led to a protest (which I wrote) and the gold medal was co-awarded. It was a bit different as in that case everyone ran the extra 400m or so, and the only real difference that we could tell was that the Canadian athlete (Lumb) who was clearly going to win before the error got slightly outkicked by the Mexican after the extra loop. I should note that this was the coaches idea and the athlete himself was very happy with his race and ok with finishing second. We just felt that we need to do something to put on record that a mistake had been made by the officials.
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Awarding silver and bronze to Sheffar and Black along with Bougnot and Seneca would not be a travesty of justice or anything. I'm not sure how you reconcile the team scores though. It doesn't look like it makes a difference if you give them the additional points (Guelph wins anyway and Sheffar's points would not be enough to catch Laval.) -
User since:
Apr 1st, 2007
Posts: 892Obvious said 6 years ago
Quoting: john
"Awarding silver and bronze to Sheffar and Black along with Bougnot and Seneca would not be a travesty of justice or anything. "
There is a difference though in that NACAC awarded a medal to the first person to complete the advertised race distance.
You're suggesting USport award medals to those who hadn't yet completed the advertised race distance. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Why would they have to apologize "on this forum"?"
Perhaps a better place to outline the mistake would be at the bottom of the results page or on their respective universities' recaps of the championship. Then they would at least get some recognition. At it stands now the only thing people see ( except for the small number of people who read trackie forums) is that Black came fourth and Sheffar was a dnf (hardly fair for him to be in results as a dnf when that is anything but an accurate depiction of what happened). At least let them be remembered for what almost was- both receiving medalsThis post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Perhaps a better place to outline the mistake would be at the bottom of the results page or on their respective universities' recaps of the championship. Then they would at least get some recognition. At it stands now the only thing people see ( except for the small number of people who read trackie forums) is that Black came fourth and Sheffar was a dnf (hardly fair for him to be in results as a dnf when that is anything but an accurate depiction of what happened). At least let them be remembered for what almost was- both receiving medals"
So there are way more people who wouldn't be checking out the multiple threads on Trackie, the CanadianRunning article or any of the other reports of the race with a description of the error, but would be looking at the bottom of the results page?
Do you really think that six week/months/years from now there is anyone other than Trackie forum readers who will remember them "for what almost was- both receiving medals" even if banner ads were taken out on Hockey Night in Canada?
It's not clear what you want to have published that hasn't already been done:
- there was a mistake made by the meet officials and a couple of competitors got screwed out of medals;
- they aren't going to take way the silver and bronze from the current recipients and they aren't going to hand out a second set, nor are they going to re-run the race. Quote comment -
User since:
Aug 1st, 2002
Posts: 2353john said 6 years ago
Quoting: Obvious
"There is a difference though in that NACAC awarded a medal to the first person to complete the advertised race distance.
You're suggesting USport award medals to those who hadn't yet completed the advertised race distance."
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
Awarding a second set of medals would be a way to acknowledge that the athletes in question were disadvantaged by the officials' mistake. It doesn't quite make them whole (and who knows, maybe they would not want to accept it), but it's a gesture, beyond the normal rules, yes. It would not disadvantage the two who did win medals. It would not disadvantage any team in the standings. Quote comment -
User since:
Feb 19th, 2015
Posts: 21Golem Rupp said 6 years ago
Alternate angle of the race for everyone's viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWtNHFbTW2Y&feature=youtu.be
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User since:
Jun 15th, 2016
Posts: 5Brad21 said 6 years ago
Quoting: Obvious
You're suggesting USport award medals to those who hadn't yet completed the advertised race distance."
I'm suggesting that the awarding of medals to the people who raced the distance as et out by race officials is the right thing to do. Quote comment -
User since:
Apr 1st, 2007
Posts: 892Obvious said 6 years ago
Quoting: Brad21
"I'm suggesting that the awarding of medals to the people who raced the distance as et out by race officials is the right thing to do."
Is that fair to Bougnot and Seneca who were awarded silver and bronze for being the 2nd and 3rd to complete the advertised 3000m distance?
(And your claim of the 'distance as set out by race officials' is a little exaggerated since there wasn't whole-scale collusion to limit the race distance but a mistake by one official.) Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Yes.
The way the race played out the medals would almost surely have gone to Thibeault, Sheffar and Black. Bougnot and Seneca were out of the medals and until the mistake was made, they were beaten.
Quoting: ObviousQuote comment
"Is that fair to Bougnot and Seneca who were awarded silver and bronze for being the 2nd and 3rd to complete the advertised 3000m distance?
(And your claim of the 'distance as set out by race officials' is a little exaggerated since there wasn't whole-scale collusion to limit the race distance but a mistake by one official.)" -
User since:
Jan 25th, 2015
Posts: 64Caymantan said 6 years ago
They should have known something was wrong when off a slow pace you break 8:00? Ches and Knight can do it, not these boys.
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
If Seneca and Bougnot were anywhere near the top-3, I wouldn't disagree with awarding them the medals. It seems fairly obvious, as somebody else mentioned, that the race for the medals was over with one lap to go and they were flat-out beaten. Black and Sheffar could have literally jogged the last lap and still held them off.
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If I were in their position, regardless of what the results will show, I would neither want, nor cherish my medal. The two of them should arrange to give them to Black and Sheffar. I remember when Shawn Crawford gave up his Olympic medal because he didn't agree with the sportsmanship of his federation challenging the results to get another runner DQ'd for stepping once on the line. He knew that, regardless of the rules that exist, he was beat by a better runner on the day and he showed great class by giving up his medal.
If I were Seneca or Bougnot, I know what I would do... -
User since:
Apr 1st, 2007
Posts: 892Obvious said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"The two of them should arrange to give them to Black and Sheffar. "
You are missing the distinction that there are two components to this:
1) the official results
2) the possession of a metallic object symbolism a result
If item 2 is the most important aspect (and the physical object will be cherished and displayed years from now), then Bougnot and Seneca handing over their medals will mean something to someone.
However that will not change item 1. Six years from now the official results will still record who the 2nd and 3rd runners to complete the full 3000m distance were. There won't be any asterisk saying that two other runners were ahead at an earlier point in the race and according to the majority of message board participants, would have managed to place in those medal spots had they not stopped before the actual race finish.
Unfortunately for Sheffar and Black, this is how the sport goes. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
This is such an unfortunate situation. As for Seneca I think he was quite a bit back and not in the race but Bougnot did not challenge on the supposed last lap. If I am not mistaken he is a past champion and he either is a very good counter or got the message better from his coaches (by the way, these coaches seem to be getting a free pass here and I am sure they own some of the heat for what happened to Black and Scheffar) Anyway, my point is to say Bougnot should give up a medal is stupid. Let's face it, he certainly was on top of any list to win that race and was in the right spot to make his move when the real last lap was sounded. My bet was still on him to win that race even without the last lap bell fiasco. Black and Scheffar will have their moment.
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User since:
Oct 20th, 2014
Posts: 1083BestCoach said 6 years ago
Jack did not run 3000m why should he get a medal???
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Jack did not finish the race as I am sure he knows this. I am sure he does not want a ribbon for a race he did not complete and therefore did not win, place or show.
I doubt Jack is crying about this now, he'll just get them back at outdoor season.....oh wait this is Canada.
BTW - If Jack helped you off the horse would you help Jack get a medal? -
User since:
May 27th, 2014
Posts: 206Groaker said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"The way the race played out the medals would almost surely have gone to Thibeault, Sheffar and Black. Bougnot and Seneca were out of the medals and until the mistake was made, they were beaten."
The athletes were approaching the 1,600m mark when the lap counting mistake was made; Bougnot and Seneca were not out of the medals at that point. As Brad 21 mentioned
Quoting: Brad21
"Someone raised the point earlier that the lap counter went from 8 to 6. From that point the guys were strategizing their finish by that. Watching it live (with the benefit of the clock in the corner of the screen) I wondered why Sheffar was going so early, but his finish was executed perfectly by what the race official was giving as the racers only feedback, the lap counter.."
From 1,600m on, the athletes may have had different expectations on how many laps remained and they may have raced differently over what they thought was the final 6 or 7 laps, choosing to push earlier, let others pull away, wait for the bell, or perhaps even wait for the legit 2,800m mark to kick.
I disagree that the laps remaining was the only feedback being given, as that ignores the large clock by the finish and possibly another clock on the other side of the track, but I can agree that the laps to go and bell were the primary feedback given.
Quoting: Anonymous
"If Seneca and Bougnot were anywhere near the top-3, I wouldn't disagree with awarding them the medals. It seems fairly obvious, as somebody else mentioned, that the race for the medals was over with one lap to go and they were flat-out beaten. Black and Sheffar could have literally jogged the last lap and still held them off."
Saying the race was over at 2,600m ignores the fact that the error occurred at 1,600m; there is 1,000m of racing and decision making in between. Black did run the last lap and crossed 3,000m in 4th; if you're suggesting that instead of stopping he slowed but continued at 2,800m, then I suppose it's possible he could have jogged it in to medal, using the word jog rather loosely to mean run 200m in about 39. Sheffar was completely spent at 2,800m; he executed extremely well for the wrong distance and had nothing left in the tank; he would have needed to slow down much earlier than the 2,800m mark to have any chance at a medal over 3,000m.
The lap counting error leading up to 1,600m likely impacted how the race played out. The 3 athlete break-away following two moves that may have occurred earlier than planned put a gap on 4th but also impacted Sheffar's ability to complete the 3,000m event. These things go hand-in-hand.
Quoting: john
"Awarding silver and bronze to Sheffar and Black along with Bougnot and Seneca would not be a travesty of justice or anything. I'm not sure how you reconcile the team scores though. It doesn't look like it makes a difference if you give them the additional points (Guelph wins anyway and Sheffar's points would not be enough to catch Laval.)"
This is an interesting thought. I would have suggested there were three ways to awards medals:
1) first three guys to complete 3,000m, in the order they finish, being the most obvious
2) first three guys to complete 2,800m, in the order they finish, due to officials error
3) first three guys to complete 1,600m, the last point in the race before the officials error would have impacted race strategy. I wouldn't advocate for this, but I could see the argument as it would be similar to using the order of participants in a road or cross race before an official sent them off course.
You went with a fourth method that doesn't appear to be based on the order in which athletes crossed the line that the finish camera monitors. I don't think this is the kind of precedent officials should be setting, as it involves subjectively choosing what placing to assign to athletes. If insisting on awarding two sets of medals, a fair method that could be applied just as fairly in future situations would involve using their order crossing the line at both 2,800m and 3,000m, in which case Black gets a gold, Sheffar gets a silver, Thibeault gets a gold and a bronze, Bougnot gets a silver, and Seneca gets a bronze. This is just focusing on medals, I'm not suggesting two sets of results. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Don't really understand the "officials make mistakes, it happens" argument. That is absolutely ridiculous. This is the national championships for our country and this is what happens. You would never see something like that at an NCAA championships. Makes the entire usports track system look like a joke. (Side note: the name usports also makes Canadian university sports sound like a joke, makes it sound like a wii u game that comes with the system when you buy it. Still have no idea what the point to it was. At least the kindergarten class who chose it got to have some fun with name making) Also those saying it was sheffar or black's fault, have you ever been in a championship race before? There is no way I am looking at the clock and going over how fast it is. You zone out and once you hear that bell it's game on. Of course if you're running 10 flat ,which is likely what the people saying that are running, then it's easy to glance at the clock and calculate in your head ," alright only a 40 second last two and I got this!:)". One last thing that I'm concerned about is the age of the officials. No offense most of them are very expierienced and do a great job but is there not any young officials out there? Looking around it looked like the average age was 75. Surely we have officials who are close to the sport and understand what it is today to come and officiate at meets. Overall disappointed at the way the race went and at all those people blaming the athletes instead of questioning the officials.
Quote comment -
User since:
Mar 2nd, 2015
Posts: 15IR said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Don't really understand the "officials make mistakes, it happens" argument. That is absolutely ridiculous. This is the national championships for our country and this is what happens. You would never see something like that at an NCAA championships. Makes the entire usports track system look like a joke. ... Also those saying it was sheffar or black's fault, have you ever been in a championship race before? There is no way I am looking at the clock and going over how fast it is. You zone out and once you hear that bell it's game on. Of course if you're running 10 flat ,which is likely what the people saying that are running, then it's easy to glance at the clock and calculate in your head ," alright only a 40 second last two and I got this!:)". One last thing that I'm concerned about is the age of the officials. No offense most of them are very expierienced and do a great job but is there not any young officials out there? Looking around it looked like the average age was 75. Surely we have officials who are close to the sport and understand what it is today to come and officiate at meets. Overall disappointed at the way the race went and at all those people blaming the athletes instead of questioning the officials."
I'm not sure what you find ridiculous about human beings making human mistakes. Surely you know how to spell 'expierienced' properly, but you are not perfect and made a human mistake.
That's an explanation, not an excuse. You are right that this sort of thing shouldn't happen at a National Championships but wrong that similar mistakes haven't been made at bigger meets like an NCAA or World Championships.
It's not a binary thing in that either it was 100% the official's fault or 100% Sheffar/Black's fault.
The official screwed up (and the lap scorers didn't pick up on it until the last lap). But Thibeault never showed any indication he was going to start his 200m kick at the 2600m mark so this shows it was possible for athletes to be aware of where they actually were in the race while still contending for a championship.
I understand your concern about the age of officials, but it's not like they appear by magic or grow on trees for someone to just go out and get.
These are people who are willing to give up their free time to volunteer their experience and expertise to provide fair competitions for all competitors. (Random side note - about half the thanks I've received as an official from athletes have come from CE athletes. It's like they are a different breed or something.)
You wonder about any young officials? Well, here's a great starting point for you: http://athleticsontario.ca/officials-comprehensive-clinic-wednesday-march-22/
If you aren't in Ontario, please contact your local branch and inquire how YOU can get involved in officiating and bring the benefit of your wealth of experience and knowledge to help ensure meets are run to the highest possible standards.
If you aren't willing to get involved or encourage your peers to contribute, then you'll have the answer as to why there aren't many young officials. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Andrew Jones said 6 years ago
These are people who are willing to give up their free time to volunteer their experience and expertise to provide fair competitions for all competitors
Quote comment
Ian's right on the money by restating this fact. Of course we couldn't even have a 3000m to discuss without many people giving up their time.
Where I stand on these types of issues (IE snafus, fiascos) is that it really isn't the officials' fault...and definitely not the athletes, as well. Where I think we can (and should) put the concern is in design.
Design in this arena to me means creating events and meets that are easy to administrate, thus reducing the possiblity of human error as much as possible. We discussed the use of technology and "smart chips" earlier in one of the CIS/U-Sports 3000m threads, and that is the kind of thing I believe we need to be discussing in a debrief on this incident -- and others like it.
Just like a plane crash, if there's any "silver lining" to a foul up, it has to be the learning from it as a means to correction. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: IR
"I'm not sure what you find ridiculous about human beings making human mistakes. Surely you know how to spell 'expierienced' properly, but you are not perfect and made a human mistake.
That's an explanation, not an excuse. You are right that this sort of thing shouldn't happen at a National Championships but wrong that similar mistakes haven't been made at bigger meets like an NCAA or World Championships.
It's not a binary thing in that either it was 100% the official's fault or 100% Sheffar/Black's fault.
The official screwed up (and the lap scorers didn't pick up on it until the last lap). But Thibeault never showed any indication he was going to start his 200m kick at the 2600m mark so this shows it was possible for athletes to be aware of where they actually were in the race while still contending for a championship.
I understand your concern about the age of officials, but it's not like they appear by magic or grow on trees for someone to just go out and get.
These are people who are willing to give up their free time to volunteer their experience and expertise to provide fair competitions for all competitors. (Random side note - about half the thanks I've received as an official from athletes have come from CE athletes. It's like they are a different breed or something.)
You wonder about any young officials? Well, here's a great starting point for you: http://athleticsontario.ca/officials-comprehensive-clinic-wednesday-march-22/
If you aren't in Ontario, please contact your local branch and inquire how YOU can get involved in officiating and bring the benefit of your wealth of experience and knowledge to help ensure meets are run to the highest possible standards.
If you aren't willing to get involved or encourage your peers to contribute, then you'll have the answer as to why there aren't many young officials."
Thibeault was told by his coaches in French to continue racing, so you claim that it was possible to be aware of where they were in the race is unfounded and frankly demeaning. These officials made a mistake, its 100% binary. Imagine if a TA told you an incorrect amount of time that you had left to complete the exam and then the professor came in and took the exam at a different time. By your logic, that is permissible because apparently people are supposed to neglect the authority figure and "be aware of where they actually where." Turn your brain on. Quote comment -
User since:
Feb 11th, 2015
Posts: 153????? said 6 years ago
its amusing to me all of the "if you have ever raced a big meet, you would know you cant be aware" comments. there are plenty of people on this board (and likely both sides of this argument) who have raced nationally and internationally, myself included. yes the official/s screwed up in not properly counting laps, but so did the athletes. the higher the level the athlete, the more aware you need to be. there is never an excuse for not paying attention to where you are, where your opponents are or what it is that you have to do to ensure yourself the best result. Thibeault made no indication, at any point, from 2200-2800m that he was intending to make a move, but easily looked the most comfortable.
Quote comment
horribly unfortunate, but could have been fixed by both athletes and officials if either had been paying attention -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Someone with sense said 6 years ago
Quoting: ?????
"its amusing to me all of the "if you have ever raced a big meet, you would know you cant be aware" comments. there are plenty of people on this board (and likely both sides of this argument) who have raced nationally and internationally, myself included. yes the official/s screwed up in not properly counting laps, but so did the athletes. the higher the level the athlete, the more aware you need to be. there is never an excuse for not paying attention to where you are, where your opponents are or what it is that you have to do to ensure yourself the best result. Thibeault made no indication, at any point, from 2200-2800m that he was intending to make a move, but easily looked the most comfortable.
horribly unfortunate, but could have been fixed by both athletes and officials if either had been paying attention"
My friend how could the athletes know that the lap counting wass off or the time?? you can't but blame on jack or connor, that's simply stupid on your part. When Im running a race and I hear the bell I pick it up. Even the announcer clear states there is one lap left. Also the laval athletes coach picked up the mistake and was giving him information in french. At the end of the day he still would of won, but with that being said, Connor and Jack were robbed of their 2nd and 3rd place medals. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Don't really understand the "officials make mistakes, it happens" argument. That is absolutely ridiculous. This is the national championships for our country and this is what happens. You would never see something like that at an NCAA championships. Makes the entire usports track system look like a joke. (Side note: the name usports also makes Canadian university sports sound like a joke, makes it sound like a wii u game that comes with the system when you buy it. Still have no idea what the point to it was. At least the kindergarten class who chose it got to have some fun with name making) Also those saying it was sheffar or black's fault, have you ever been in a championship race before? There is no way I am looking at the clock and going over how fast it is. You zone out and once you hear that bell it's game on. Of course if you're running 10 flat ,which is likely what the people saying that are running, then it's easy to glance at the clock and calculate in your head ," alright only a 40 second last two and I got this!:)". One last thing that I'm concerned about is the age of the officials. No offense most of them are very expierienced and do a great job but is there not any young officials out there? Looking around it looked like the average age was 75. Surely we have officials who are close to the sport and understand what it is today to come and officiate at meets. Overall disappointed at the way the race went and at all those people blaming the athletes instead of questioning the officials."
2013 NCAA D111 - women's 5000 metres ran a lap short. The point is simple, mistakes happen. Quote comment -
User since:
Feb 11th, 2015
Posts: 153????? said 6 years ago
Quoting: Someone with sense
"My friend how could the athletes know that the lap counting wass off or the time?? you can't but blame on jack or connor, that's simply stupid on your part. When Im running a race and I hear the bell I pick it up. Even the announcer clear states there is one lap left. Also the laval athletes coach picked up the mistake and was giving him information in french. At the end of the day he still would of won, but with that being said, Connor and Jack were robbed of their 2nd and 3rd place medals."
agreed; they did not finish the 2-3 spots they rightfully would have finished. they definitively, without question, should have been medalists. also, im not BLAMING jack or connor, simply saying you need to know. nothing in life is certain. you have to take control and be aware of your surroundings. im not saying they should have assumed officials were wrong, but you need to be more aware of whats going on.
the announcer is irrelevant. he also got their names wrong - should they have an identify crisis mid race?
if youre going to call the laval coach giving info in french into the conversation, both guy and dst are VERY experienced athletes/coaches. where were they? a lot of blame going both at athletes and officials.......... Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: ?????
"agreed; they did not finish the 2-3 spots they rightfully would have finished. they definitively, without question, should have been medalists. also, im not BLAMING jack or connor, simply saying you need to know. nothing in life is certain. you have to take control and be aware of your surroundings. im not saying they should have assumed officials were wrong, but you need to be more aware of whats going on.
the announcer is irrelevant. he also got their names wrong - should they have an identify crisis mid race?
if youre going to call the laval coach giving info in french into the conversation, both guy and dst are VERY experienced athletes/coaches. where were they? a lot of blame going both at athletes and officials.........."
Why don't you have the balls to post your real name and come forward and say to Jack and Connor that it is their fault that they reacted to the bell sounding? Quote comment -
User since:
May 27th, 2014
Posts: 206Groaker said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"There is no way I am looking at the clock and going over how fast it is. You zone out and once you hear that bell it's game on."
Quoting: Someone with sense
"When Im running a race and I hear the bell I pick it up. Even the announcer clear states there is one lap left."
Quoting: Anonymous
"...it is their fault that they reacted to the bell sounding?"
This isn't what happened at the USports M3,000m race! Watch the video again. There is no significant change in pace at the 2,600m mark when the bell rings because people made moves several minutes earlier and the pace didn't let up.
Quoting: Anonymous
"Thibeault was told by his coaches in French to continue racing, so you claim that it was possible to be aware of where they were in the race is unfounded and frankly demeaning."
Quoting: Someone with sense
"My friend how could the athletes know that the lap counting wass off or the time?? you can't but blame on jack or connor, that's simply stupid on your part .... Also the laval athletes coach picked up the mistake and was giving him information in french."
Whether or not a coach shouted correct information doesn't remove the possibility that athletes in this race correctly kept track of what lap they were on. It is possible to count to 15 while racing all out on a track; I know this from experience. Should athletes be required to count to 15 while racing? That's a different question than whether or not it's possible. Quote comment -
User since:
Feb 11th, 2015
Posts: 153????? said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Why don't you have the balls to post your real name and come forward and say to Jack and Connor that it is their fault that they reacted to the bell sounding?"
because me "having balls" and them being aware of their surrounds have zero correlation. me giving you my name wont make them more aware of what happened. and AGAIN.... not entirely their fault. i would be surprised if either of them did not feel at least partially silly for making such a mistake.
so much butt hurt on this thread that you are not even willing to read the information being put in front of you. whether or not i enjoy anonymity, doesnt change the requirement of an elite athlete to pay attention. while i am sure you are simply trying to defend a friend, what are you trying to prove here? the results stand as is. its unfortunate, but im sure both jack and connor have accepted it. there was a mistake from both sides Quote comment
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