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International-conference-of-athletics-excellence
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User since:
Jun 25th, 2013
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bonstad said 2 weeks ago

Ahmed Run

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Report    REPLY #51 

    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Distance Stud
    "Steve, I completely agree with you in your thoughts towards Farah. !"


    AUS scout and oldster agreeing? No sit and kick in the WC final? What is the world coming to? All I know is wrong

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Meizner
    "But alot of Farah's wins were not the conventional sit and kick down the home stretch, were they? He often took the lead with 2-3 laps left and ran his opponents 'off his wheel' to borrow a cycling term. I see that as much different than the classic 1500 go slowly through 3 laps and kick like crazy over 300 or 100m...."


    Leaving a 10,000 till the final 1200 or 1k is proportional to leaving a 1500 till the final 400-500. This is still "sit and kick", especially because he didn't actually "kick" from 1200 out; he just grabbed the inside lane and refused to give it up.; he didn't actually kick till he absolutely had to. When you've gotten everyone to piss down their leg in fear of you till this point in the race, I have to admit that this is a highly effective tactic for the fastest guy over 1500m; but, it was all he ever did. Again, a winner, but no heart. I'm glad he's gone.

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "What a load of crap. These people don’t owe you anything. Their goal is to win medals in a Championship format and they come up with the best game plan to get that done. Questioning the validity of performances is fine, but the tactical decisions? Come on... it’s a footrace, not a world record attempt. They are under no obligation to make their winning performance ‘look pretty’ for you. And quite frankly, a tactical Head-to-Head competition through rounds is far more interesting to me than a rabbited world record..."


    This is an odd perspective, I must say. Without fans (and the runners of the "Farah era" drove so many of them away that there was talk of nixing the 10,000 from the championship program) sport is a pretty sad affair. The medals that get won become pretty meaningless. There is a reason why the 5,000 is no longer in the diamond league; these guys killed it. If you turn the 5,000 into a 1500, people would rather just watch the 1500. Maybe after the show these wild boys in the 5 and 10 put on in Doha they will reconsider!

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Certainly Not Skuj said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "Leaving a 10,000 till the final 1200 or 1k is proportional to leaving a 1500 till the final 400-500.."


    My math must be getting really bad in my declining years. 1/10th of a 10k is "proportional" to a third of a 1500m? :)

    Anyway....we will continue to disagree about Farah. In every single one of his WC/Oly races, I was on the edge of my seat. "Holy f@#k, they are letting him do his thing again. Sweet Jesus, will he actually get away with it again?" There were many times with 1-2 laps to go where I wondered if he'd fail....(he did fail once or twice, right?).....I thought it was ballsy and gutsy even if it was predictable.

    Ovett was predictable too, wasn't he?

    And Steve, blaming Farah for the discussion around nixing the 10k is too much. Come on, Man.

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Certainly Not Skuj
    "My math must be getting really bad in my declining years. 1/10th of a 10k is "proportional" to a third of a 1500m? :)

    Anyway....we will continue to disagree about Farah. In every single one of his WC/Oly races, I was on the edge of my seat. "Holy f@#k, they are letting him do his thing again. Sweet Jesus, will he actually get away with it again?" There were many times with 1-2 laps to go where I wondered if he'd fail....(he did fail once or twice, right?).....I thought it was ballsy and gutsy even if it was predictable.

    Ovett was predictable too, wasn't he?

    And Steve, blaming Farah for the discussion around nixing the 10k is too much. Come on, Man."


    Sorry, it was late! But the correct math actually makes my point better-- leading from 1200 to 1k out in a 10 is "sitting and kicking".

    I'll give you that Farah's races were luridly mesmerizing. But, for a true fan of distance running, they were also frustrating and depressing-- to the precise extent that the Doha races, and Farah's last championship 10, were thrilling and inspiring. And while Farah was certainly not alone in helping to kill the fan appeal of the 5 and 10, he, as by far the top athlete from his era, played an out-sized role.

    In fact, subject to his Farah's influence, the (male) distance races from 1500 up, and at every level, were infected with this disease. I knew something was terribly wrong when I watched the grade 9 boys at OFSAA, in perfect conditions, slow down after a lap and dare each other to take the lead. (And who could blame them? At 14, this was all they had ever seen of men's championship distance racing!) During the "Farah Era" we saw everything from "tactical" XC races and relays (yes, relays!) to, more than once, grown men with personal bests in the 3:40 range running over 4mins in championship 1500s. I saw a Canadian men's 1500 open in 88 secs. (Who won that one? Who remembers? Who cares?). If you have another way of explaining this that doesn't include the prominent example set by Farah over a his nearly 10 years at the top of the sport, I'm all ears!

    This post was edited by Oldster 1 week ago . 
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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    [QUOTE]Quoting: Oldster
    "In fact, subject to his Farah's influence, the (male) distance races from 1500 up, and at every level, were infected with this disease."

    An interesting quantitative analysis of the supposed "sit and kick era" including an analysis of any potential influence of Farah can be found here.

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2403326/track-world-champs-pacing-analysis

    From that analysis they conclude:

    "But it also suggests that we can’t blame Mo Farah for the epidemic of slow-starting races, because they took hold around 2005."

    Along with the argument re:timing, and assuming he might still be labelled the leader of "sit and kick" at later times, I still think it is hard to blame Farah since he showed he would win no matter what the pace (2017 10k being a good example) unlike other sit and kickers. Better to blame those who come 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Certainly Not Skuj said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "Sorry, it was late! But the correct math actually makes my point better-- leading from 1200 to 1k out in a 10 is "sitting and kicking".

    I'll give you that Farah's races were luridly mesmerizing. But, for a true fan of distance running, they were also frustrating and depressing-- to the precise extent that the Doha races, and Farah's last championship 10, were thrilling and inspiring. And while Farah was certainly not alone in helping to kill the fan appeal of the 5 and 10, he, as by far the top athlete from his era, played an out-sized role.

    In fact, subject to his Farah's influence, the (male) distance races from 1500 up, and at every level, were infected with this disease. I knew something was terribly wrong when I watched the grade 9 boys at OFSAA, in perfect conditions, slow down after a lap and dare each other to take the lead. (And who could blame them? At 14, this was all they had ever seen of men's championship distance racing!) During the "Farah Era" we saw everything from "tactical" XC races and relays (yes, relays!) to, more than once, grown men with personal bests in the 3:40 range running over 4mins in championship 1500s. I saw a Canadian men's 1500 open in 88 secs. (Who won that one? Who remembers? Who cares?). If you have another way of explaining this that doesn't include the prominent example set by Farah over a his nearly 10 years at the top of the sport, I'm all ears!"



    Yes, it's all Farah's fault!! It doesn't matter what the other runners were doing on the world stage at 1500m, 800m....heck.....even the 400m!! Farah infected them all. And if I'm not mistaken, just about all of those Championship wins were around 14min/29min, right?

    I still think this is a stretch, Steve.

    (Ah, but that 4:07 in Edmonton was special. They were all letting the 10000m friend of Farah's dictate!!) :)

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Randomness. Sometimes races start slow, sometimes they don't. It happened before Farah's era, it will happen after.

    Over the last 10 years you've been particularly sensitive to sit and kick races because you didn't like Farah's tactics. So when you saw it you blamed Farah. But when you saw it 15 years ago you didn't pay close attention to it.


    Quoting: Oldster
    "If you have another way of explaining this that doesn't include the prominent example set by Farah over a his nearly 10 years at the top of the sport, I'm all ears!"

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  • ahutch User since:
    Feb 21st, 2011
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    Report    REPLY #59 

    ahutch said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "But, for a true fan of distance running..."


    Sucks to have wasted all those years following the sport without even realizing that I wasn't a true fan! ;) Sort of reminds me of all the "So you want to be a real man?" posts on Letsrun.


    "If you have another way of explaining this that doesn't include the prominent example set by Farah over a his nearly 10 years at the top of the sport, I'm all ears!"


    With apologies for the self-promotion, I crunched some numbers on early pace in the distances at World Championships over the past 20 years:
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2403326/track-world-champs-pacing-analysis

    To my eye, the pattern of slow-starting distance races started in 2005 and continued until 2017 (with some fluctuations like a fairly fast-starting year in 2013 and the slowest-starting year of all in 2015).

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 week ago

    Quoting: ahutch
    "With apologies for the self-promotion, I crunched some numbers on early pace in the distances at World Championships over the past 20 years:
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2403326/track-world-champs-pacing-analysis

    To my eye, the pattern of slow-starting distance races started in 2005 and continued until 2017 (with some fluctuations like a fairly fast-starting year in 2013 and the slowest-starting year of all in 2015)."


    With all due respect, I will put my fandom of distance running up against anyone's!

    Fair point re: the actual beginning of the "sit-and-kick" era. But I would still argue that it would not have actually become an era if it were not for Farah's perfection of the tactic-- and, yes, the lack of imagination of his competitors, who were probably thinking that, with enough chances, they could do it better than Farah. It's quite possible that his success made his competitors think that it was the only way to win.

    In fact, I recall having arguments with younger runners not too long ago in which they claimed as much-- i.e. that it was always folly to lead a distance race. Such was the stunting of their imaginations and, yes, the low quality of their fanship and historical knowledge of the sport, that they thought the only alternative to sitting and kicking was Prefontaine-style suicidal front-running.

    Edit: This year's Doha is a perfect example of what I've being saying for years: If you take the lead aggressively, chances are you will not have to lead the whole way; others in whose interest it is to run a fast pace will likely join you. It's called setting the tone of the race.

    This post was edited by Oldster 1 week ago . 
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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "
    yes, the low quality of their fanship and historical knowledge of the sport, that they thought the only alternative to sitting and kicking was Prefontaine-style suicidal front-running.

    ."


    Totally agree, front running can be done so many different ways! I don't think many runners consider it an advantage to have the lead going into the latter stages of the race but it clearly is.

    Re: fanship. Can someone not be a massive fan and also have massive misconceptions about race tactics and sport history? I have always thought of fandom as more of an emotional thing. No doubt you have it in spades but so do many 18 year olds who have never heard of Rod Dixon and don't even know your real name.

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  • ahutch User since:
    Feb 21st, 2011
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    ahutch said 1 week ago

    Yeah, to be fair, I'll admit that I really didn't expect to ever see a men's 1,500 race won with a wire-to-wire fast pace, at least in a field where no one was truly head-and-shoulders above the competition. Live and learn!

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Patrick MacKinnon said 1 week ago

    Quoting: ahutch
    "Yeah, to be fair, I'll admit that I really didn't expect to ever see a men's 1,500 race won with a wire-to-wire fast pace, at least in a field where no one was truly head-and-shoulders above the competition. Live and learn!"


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKX22TOCCA

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  • peck User since:
    May 23rd, 2013
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    Peck said 1 week ago

    I think it goes back a long way. I still can't believe that Morcelli, being a 3.28 guy lost the 92 1500 to Cacho in 3.40. I remember thinking that you are 4 seconds faster than everyone in the race. JUST RUN!!!

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Peck
    "I think it goes back a long way. I still can't believe that Morcelli, being a 3.28 guy lost the 92 1500 to Cacho in 3.40. I remember thinking that you are 4 seconds faster than everyone in the race. JUST RUN!!!"


    Kiprop was super frustrating to watch as well. He should have just gone to the front of every race!

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Certainly Not Skuj said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Peck
    "I think it goes back a long way. I still can't believe that Morcelli, being a 3.28 guy lost the 92 1500 to Cacho in 3.40. I remember thinking that you are 4 seconds faster than everyone in the race. JUST RUN!!!"


    Thing is, that was the one race where he decided to abandon his usual style. Doh!!

    Anyway, this discussion is like the music discussion: Some of us love Beatles, some of us love Bach.

    Whatever.

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Anonymous

    Re: fanship. Can someone not be a massive fan and also have massive misconceptions about race tactics and sport history? I have always thought of fandom as more of an emotional thing. No doubt you have it in spades but so do many 18 year olds who have never heard of Rod Dixon and don't even know your real name."


    When it comes to distance running, apparently. But try showing up on a hockey, football, baseball, basketball, etc., etc. forum asking that question, or showing the least bit of ignorance about the finer points and history of those sports. Serious fans will hoot you off the stage. Should be the same in distance running too. You can't really love it if you don't know anything about its history and lore.

    This post was edited by Oldster 1 week ago . 
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    oregon waffle said 1 week ago

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmwYyBJOu6U Walker the first guy to break 3:50 in the mile and Olympic gold 1500m . One of the best. Every generation has great runners. All the crew that ran before and after setting records are all great athletes. It's been fun to watch.

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  • cowardnessthyname User since:
    Oct 11th, 2013
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    Report    REPLY #69 

    Cowardnessthyname said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "When it comes to distance running, apparently. But try showing up on a hockey, football, baseball, basketball, etc., etc. forum asking that question, or showing the least bit of ignorance about the finer points and history of those sports. Serious fans will hoot you off the stage. Should be the same in distance running too. You can't really love it if you don't know anything about its history and lore."


    Nah, not really. You can have it both ways. The sports discussion on Reddit dwarfs anything else out there now. On the various subreddits, you get younger fans that don't know who Patrick Ewing is, or that the Manning brothers had a dad who was pretty good in his own right. They don't get shouted down. If it's relevant to the discussion, someone brings it up.

    Gatekeeping in fandom is problematic. You can't love this as much as me because you don't understand it like I do...I'm not sure how that grows interest.

    Speaking of history, surely there's a bit of revisionism going on here. I don't see how Bekele's wins in the 10,000 at the 2004 or 2008 Olympics, or any of his world 10,000 titles from 2003-2009, were anything but a sit and kick affair for him. Watch any of them (they're all on YouTube)- he waits to take the lead at the bell. In 2003 he was sitting on Geb, in 2009 he was sitting on Tadese.

    In the 5,000, Bekele couldn't get away with a sit and kick approach in 2003. Why? He was contending with El Guerrouj and a prodigy by the name of Eluid Kipchoge. He ran from the front. They both out-kicked him at the end. Same thing happened in 2004 (except Bekele got the best of Kipchoge for the silver). He was forced by his competitors to try different tactics to win. Who among Farah's competitors ever approached the caliber of these men? I find it difficult to believe that Bekele would have tried any other tactic if he had the choice. Just look at all of Bekele's Golden League/Diamond League wins over the years. He often mailed it in until the last lap...and he might be the greatest of all time, depending on how much you value XC.

    Sure, Farah never went for it in trying to take down a world record. If that's your reason for disliking the guy, more than his association with Salazar, pick your poison. But as for his tactics in championship races having an outsized impact on the tactics of grade 9 boys at OFSAA and races worldwide, I think that's a bit too much "Great Man Theory" for me. Sure, he's memorable enough by my estimation. He won two Olympic titles on home soil (which will be remembered long after the 5000/10000 world records have been reset). But I'd love to see how the races in the English Schools championships were being decided during the "Farah era," since that's the one place I could believe he might have been having an outsized influence. A lot of grade nine boys that end up at OFSAA aren't even big fans of distance running yet- their fandom comes later.

    And let's not forget the first 5000m world title was won by Eamonn Coghlan...who figured his miler's kick would serve him well at the distance on the last lap. He wasn't wrong.

    This post was edited by Cowardnessthyname 6 days ago . 
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  • new-post-last-visitdozzi User since:
    Oct 24th, 2015
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    Dozzi said 6 days ago

    Quoting: Oldster
    "You can't really love it if you don't know anything about its history and lore."


    That’s a pretty elitist thing to say about one of the most accessible sports in the world.

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