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International-conference-of-athletics-excellence
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Anonymous
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Let's discuss said 1 week ago

How would they fair? USPORTS vs. NCAA

Just 5 random questions

1. How do you all think the Women's Teams of Queens, Guelph, Laval, Toronto, and UBC would fair against the Women of Arkansas, BYU, Stanford and New Mexico, at the NCAA D1 Championships over 6k?

2. Could USPORTS Women's Champ Lucia beat NCAA Champ Kelati at NCAA?

3. Could the Calgary, Laval, McMaster, UBC & Guelph men be competitive against Number Number 7 Michigan or Number 12 Iona?

4. Could Queens or Windsor men beat 27 Syracuse?

5. How would Kieran Lumb fair in the NCAA race? Could he beat Number 10 Jaret Carpenter of Purdue?

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    Edna Kurcat said 1 week ago

    Lets here your answers first sister.

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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    No

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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    1. I don't think the USport Women would be able to hang with the likes of Arkansas, but would more see them in the 15-20 Range of the NCAA specifically Queens not sure about Guelph, Laval deff, not Toronto or UBC.

    2. nope

    3. I think Maybe Calgary could hang in the 10+ range of NCAA teams possibly McMaster or Guelph higher up or on a good day. I could see them sticking around Iona more than a Michigan team. (Very odd teams to pick BTW)

    4. I doubt it

    5. I don't think so, id see lumb more in the 25+

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    Uhhhhh said 1 week ago

    1. Not well
    2. No
    3. Almost definitely not
    4. Almost certainly not
    5. No

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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Let's discuss
    "Just 5 random questions

    1. How do you all think the Women's Teams of Queens, Guelph, Laval, Toronto, and UBC would fair against the Women of Arkansas, BYU, Stanford and New Mexico, at the NCAA D1 Championships over 6k?

    2. Could USPORTS Women's Champ Lucia beat NCAA Champ Kelati at NCAA?


    I dont think the Usports teams would stand a chance against the NCAA D1 teams. NCAA teams are comprised of runners from all over the world (Kelati from Ertirea, Kurgat from Kenya, Cohen from Israel and thats just one team!) USPORTS teams are mostly just canadian.

    This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 1 week ago . 
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    https://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Forum/why-not-split-usport-into-ncaa-conferences/17097/1/?comment_id=139938"e=1

    Post #16 gives the comparisons I think you are looking for. It only looks at teams, not individuals. Some USport individuals could have success at NC's, but it varies greatly year to year.

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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Let's discuss
    "Just 5 random questions

    1. How do you all think the Women's Teams of Queens, Guelph, Laval, Toronto, and UBC would fair against the Women of Arkansas, BYU, Stanford and New Mexico, at the NCAA D1 Championships over 6k?

    2. Could USPORTS Women's Champ Lucia beat NCAA Champ Kelati at NCAA?

    3. Could the Calgary, Laval, McMaster, UBC & Guelph men be competitive against Number Number 7 Michigan or Number 12 Iona?

    4. Could Queens or Windsor men beat 27 Syracuse?

    5. How would Kieran Lumb fair in the NCAA race? Could he beat Number 10 Jaret Carpenter of Purdue?"



    1. They would be beaten by all those schools. I doubt many of the Cdn Teams you mentioned would even qualify for NCAA D1 Nationals!!

    2. Not in a million years

    3. See #1

    4. Doubt it.

    5. Not a chance.

    Sadly most Canadian schools don't make an effort to go down to the USA to compete in some of the top meets. UBC use to but no longer.

    Usports would even have difficulty finishing in the Top 10 at D2 level

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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    I'll take a crack at this.

    1. Queen's women's roster, all at their best, probably have a shot at top 15. At their best means Brogan firing on all cylinders which she wasn't this fall (not meant as a shot at her, even the best in the world have off seasons).

    2. No.

    3. No. The only team in USports right now that would be competitive at that meet is Queen's women. The men's race is probably still deeper than the women, but the front end of the women's pack is much better.

    4. No.

    5. No. Would be somewhere between 50 and 100.

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    Really Bro said 1 week ago

    1. Now this is crazy. Queens impressively won Usports with 3 low sticks but there 5th woman in 24th. That would mean she is 200+ at NCAAs, already putting them behind all those teams. The rest of the teams you named are good at the usports level but when things get more deep at NCAAs and they have no low sticks those points add up. I’d bet that Arkansas would put their 5 in the top 6-7 or so at Usports, meaning they’re worlds ahead of any Usports team. Same goes for BYU, Stanford etc.
    2. Not a chance in the world, maybe over 800.
    3. Again, no. But at least you picked more reasonable teams. All of those teams had their 5th man at Usports in 25+ so like 200+ at NCAAs. Contrarily, Michigan and Iona had their 5th man in 85 and 119 respectively (using only team scores). You get the point though, no Usports team is deep enough to compete with iona or Michigan although I’d reckon some guys from those teams would have a shot at All-American. On a good day those teams would be 20-30 at NCs if they make it.
    4. No queens and Windsor wouldn’t even make NCAAs they can’t put 5 in the usports top 60
    5. On paper possibly, lumb runs 13:40. Although Carpenter is much more battle tested this xc season so I’d put my money on him

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    jussayin said 1 week ago

    If said team was so good they would have (a) stayed in the ncaa or (b) gone to the ncaa
    ain't no Sheila Reid at Queens right now bud.



    Quoting: Anonymous
    "I'll take a crack at this.

    1. Queen's women's roster, all at their best, probably have a shot at top 15. At their best means Brogan firing on all cylinders which she wasn't this fall (not meant as a shot at her, even the best in the world have off seasons).

    2. No.

    3. No. The only team in USports right now that would be competitive at that meet is Queen's women. The men's race is probably still deeper than the women, but the front end of the women's pack is much better.

    4. No.

    5. No. Would be somewhere between 50 and 100."

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    Just a thought said 6 days ago

    5. No. Would be somewhere between 50 and 100."[/QUOTE]

    Lumb ranked 20th in the outdoor 5000m last year amongst North American collegiate athletes, ahead of notable NCAA XC Top-10 finishers like Seufer of VT and Dressel of CO. With 9 of those men graduated prior to the current XC season and considering the top Canadian male this year finished one spot outside of All-American (41st) with a 5000m PB that would rank him ~50th in the collegiate system, I think its fair to say Lumb could probably have at least cracked All-American. FWIW, Carpenter's 5000 PB is 13:43.14. Again, no perfect comparisons here but there are very few years where a 13:40 guy isn't in the mix at the big dance.

    https://www.tfrrs.org//lists/2573/NCAA

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  • oldster User since:
    Sep 25th, 2013
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    Oldster said 6 days ago

    Generally agree with the above. We are not competitive with the top NCAA D-1 teams. But why would we be expected to be? The US has 10x our population, and the NCAA is now a global U23 league. And, we can't offer full scholarships, to say nothing of average climate and facilities/IST.

    That said:

    1. Lucia is a top-tier collegiate athlete now approaching the peak of her powers. No telling what she might be able to do, but I'm guessing at least top 10, probably top 5 on her best day. Likewise Branna and Brogan at their best.

    2. Lumb is a talented enough guy to challenge for top 10 on his best day. The trouble is, so are 50 other guys in this race! The difference between your best day and an average day at D 1 Nats can be 30-40 places. It has to be seen to be believed.

    3. This year, our women actually won a mid-level NCAA D 1 race pretty handily. Looking at regional results from the same course, I'm sure we would have made nationals over 6k, even with the team we ended up running at U-Sports. But, without Makenna and a fully healthy Brogan, we would have struggled to make top 20. At full strength, I think we might have been good enough for 8-12th.

    4. The best 3-4 CIS/U-Sports women's sides of all time (Western's best side from the 80s, a UVIC team or two, and Guelph's 2015 team) would, at their best, be top 10 for sure. Among the guys, there's only one team I think for sure could have gone top 10-- Ottawa's, from the late 80s'. Even Guelph's best teams got roughed up pretty badly when they race top 10 or better men's teams (e.g. at Wisconsin in 2015), and I'm pretty sure they have never won Lehigh.

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    Anonymous said 6 days ago

    Quoting: jussayin
    ""



    I mean they do have two Canadian record holders and three, soon to be four, women who have competed at some type of World championships. Jussayin

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    history said 5 days ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "I dont think the Usports teams would stand a chance against the NCAA D1 teams. NCAA teams are comprised of runners from all over the world (Kelati from Ertirea, Kurgat from Kenya, Cohen from Israel and thats just one team!) USPORTS teams are mostly just canadian."



    In 2014 the Guelph men's and women's XC teams raced at the Wisconsin Invite against most of the top teams in D1 (a few top team went to Pre-Nats, but not many). The women placed 7th, the men were 18th. The women in particular did not have a good day (Wisco is a fast/flat course, 5/7 ran faster in Kingston at OUAs a few weeks later). I think this demonstrates that the Guelph women in 2014 were at top 10 D1 quality even on a not so great day.

    Though it's hard to say exactly how good that team would be in today's USPORTS, it's fair to say that the quality of USPORTS/CIS has improved since 2014. Queen's probably would have done quite well in the NCAA.

    https://www.guelphmercury.com/community-story/4923768-gryphon-women-seventh-at-wisconsin-cross-country-meet/

    https://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Results/2014-oua-championships/3414/

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    Anonymous said 3 days ago

    Quoting: history
    "In 2014 the Guelph men's and women's XC teams raced at the Wisconsin Invite against most of the top teams in D1 (a few top team went to Pre-Nats, but not many). The women placed 7th, the men were 18th. The women in particular did not have a good day (Wisco is a fast/flat course, 5/7 ran faster in Kingston at OUAs a few weeks later). I think this demonstrates that the Guelph women in 2014 were at top 10 D1 quality even on a not so great day.

    Though it's hard to say exactly how good that team would be in today's USPORTS, it's fair to say that the quality of USPORTS/CIS has improved since 2014. Queen's probably would have done quite well in the NCAA.

    https://www.guelphmercury.com/community-story/4923768-gryphon-women-seventh-at-wisconsin-cross-country-meet/

    https://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Results/2014-oua-championships/3414/"


    We are talking National Championship not an invitation race hosted by a school. I's doubtful that any Canadian school would even make it past Regionals. Canadian schools lack the depth that most good NCAA D1 schools have and in order to qualify you need depth.

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    Anonymous said 3 days ago

    Quoting: history

    Though it's hard to say exactly how good that team would be in today's USPORTS, it's fair to say that the quality of USPORTS/CIS has improved since 2014. Queen's probably would have done quite well in the NCAA.


    https://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Results/2014-oua-championships/3414/"


    Is it higher quality now? This is not a perfect indicator but the times on the track in the winter and spring seemed to have dipped quite significantly in recent years. To me it seems that U-Sports/CIS depth was very high between 2011 and 2014 on the men's side.

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    history said 3 days ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "Is it higher quality now? This is not a perfect indicator but the times on the track in the winter and spring seemed to have dipped quite significantly in recent years. To me it seems that U-Sports/CIS depth was very high between 2011 and 2014 on the men's side."



    If you read my post, you'd find I was talking about the women's teams. 2014-2015 was a pretty good year, but the depth (as evidenced by the indoor track standards) is likely a bit better now.

    Also the Wisconsin Invite isn't "some invitation race hosted by some school" lol. It is arguably deeper than the NCAA race because there is no qualification; since team qualification is favoured at the D1 champs, many good individuals who would bolster the depth are left at home. They all get to race at Wisconsin.

    But in case you care, here's the NCAA top 10 from that year (and if there were at Wisco):

    1. Michigan State (present)
    2. Iowa State (present)
    3. New Mexico (present)
    4. Georgetown (no)
    5. Arkansas (present)
    6. Oregon (no)
    7. Colorado (no)
    8. West Virginia (present)
    9. Iona (present)
    10. Wisconsin (present)

    At Wisconsin, Guelph was beat by Michigan State, Arkansas, Iowa State, Wisconsin, West Virginia, and New Mexico in that order. They beat Iona. So it is completely fair to say that this team, even on a sub-par day by their own standards would have been top 10. No team that beat them was outside the top 10, and they beat a team in the top 10. I'm not sure something could be more evident.

    https://www.flotrack.org/articles/5038999-results-wisconsin-adidas-xc-invitational
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NCAA_Division_I_Cross_Country_Championships

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  • oldster User since:
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    Oldster said 3 days ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "We are talking National Championship not an invitation race hosted by a school. I's doubtful that any Canadian school would even make it past Regionals. Canadian schools lack the depth that most good NCAA D1 schools have and in order to qualify you need depth."


    Wisco is actually the best non-championship race on the NCAA calendar.

    And, to repeat, Queen's women actually won a mid-level D-1 invitational, with two of the teams we beat pretty decisively (50+ points) moving into the rankings at around 20th the following week on the strength of their performances. It's more than fair to say that no USports team could make top 10, but it's simply not accurate to say that no team could make it out of regionals. With even a modest performance at regionals we would have made it out.

    As for Usports being better now than in 2014, I don't think it is on the men's side, but it most certainly is on the women's side (individual winners have been very good and the top 3-4 teams have been pretty deep). This quality and depth is reflected in women's indoor 3k times over the past 4-5 years too.

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    Anonymous said 3 days ago

    How would the All Canadian team 1 do? Could they win NCAA? Could they even place top 5?

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  • meizner User since:
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    Meizner said 2 days ago

    Of all of the questions, I think Stafford being able to contest FTW is the most likely. She is probably in ~4:05 shape based on how well she is running compared with her past XC form. Not many women in the NCAA run that fast and she is obviously transferring that into good XC racing.

    I also think Lumb would be, on a good day, capable of a top 10. However, the margin for error in very very slim. I think if you race it 100 times, he is top 10 maybe 20% of the time.

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    Anonymous said 2 days ago

    Quoting: Meizner
    "Of all of the questions, I think Stafford being able to contest FTW is the most likely. She is probably in ~4:05 shape based on how well she is running compared with her past XC form. Not many women in the NCAA run that fast and she is obviously transferring that into good XC racing.

    I also think Lumb would be, on a good day, capable of a top 10. However, the margin for error in very very slim. I think if you race it 100 times, he is top 10 maybe 20% of the time."



    I think Stafford would be top 10 contender, maybe top 5 on a really, really good day. Jessica Hull, who is a better distance runner and ran close to 4.00 last year only finished 3rd in 2018. Alicia Monson has run 8.45 for 3000m (indoors). Kelati has a 32.09 10k. Emily Sisson's best was 7th . Tough to win, especially for the 1500m runner.

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    Anonymous said 2 days ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "How would the All Canadian team 1 do? Could they win NCAA? Could they even place top 5?"


    OMG take your rose coloured glasses off!!

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    Anonymous said 2 days ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "How would the All Canadian team 1 do? Could they win NCAA? Could they even place top 5?"

    Top 10 if they're lucky

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  • new-post-last-visitdaddy User since:
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    Daddy said 2 days ago

    I thought about some of this stuff nearly a month ago, and some of the stuff here is quite bold,

    To start, the NCAA women run 6k so you should maybe consider how that changes things, and re watching the men's 10k a day ago it showed them coming through the 10k mark with nearly an extra 400 to go, so times are way different

    I figure the Queen's women, healthy and solid runs, could be a middle team at NCAA's, and the top end of usports women would certainly be all American contenders +/-, with some near the top

    No men's team would get near top 20, the depth is ridiculous, but 20 something sure, without someone running poorly

    Lumb I figured if you compared to el sandali would probably be similar, so lumb with his track PB could maybe get all American, and I was being optimistic about all of this so saying maybe all American isn't bad it's actually quite good, on that note Russell Pennock gets a shout out because that guy lead out usports ridiculously fast almost start to finish and still came 3rd, guy needs more respect than probably given, and so he and ubene could probably have fared well at NCAA's this year, but that could literally mean 60-120.

    Ncaa conditions -- for Canadians I think it was favourable this year, at least from experience of cold and soggy

    Queen's men....(sigh) I'm glad you brought this up, this team has about 10x more than it showed even once this fall, they couldn't put together a connect-the-dots this season if it came down to it. @me. And Windsor men raced quite well when it mattered, I also don't think anyone outside of a Great-Day-Calgary would be anything to talk about at NCAA's

    Moral of story, like oldster said, NCAA is basically a u23 world League these days, don't forget that, and having people in usports that could truly be in the elite of those fields is something to build off of

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