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Elementary School XC Super Meet
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Really Am Skuj said 10 months ago

Moen wins Fukuoka in 2:05:48.

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  • steveweiler User since:
    Mar 28th, 2012
    Posts: 707
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    SteveWeiler said 9 months ago

    Quoting: powerboy
    "As I have said, I am certainly not taking an absolute position on this either, but it is disappointing if the general sentiment is that no white guy could likely run 2:05 without drugs."

    How do you get from the posts by Boyd, Andrew, etc. to this statement? I don't think this is an accurate summary of the general sentiment in this thread.

    I have also refrained from stating an absolute position re: doping.

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Really Am Skuj said 9 months ago

    Quoting: Anonymous
    "2:05 may not be impossible for a white dude, but.... it is the progression, his association of a shady coach, and his poorly detailed training plan that Steve W, Steve B, and Skuj have been discussing and raising red flags about this athlete.

    Question for Oldster/Skuj/Steve W:
    If this athlete is suspected of doping, then why hasn't he been caught? What should WADA change that will help catch these suspicious athletes?

    I do have to agree with powerboy, that simply progression of times isn't enough to convict someone of doping, you have to have proof. So what can WADA do to make our sport cleaner?"

    I just want to point out that I am the guy with my head in the sand, an actual fan (!!) of Canova, and a believer that some people approaching world class can make big jumps into the top tier of world class in mid 20s.

    I must have missed the parts where Canova is involved in blood doping and other shady aspects. I will endeavour to improve my searching skills.

    I think it is quite possible that Moen's training prior to 2017 was disorganized. A combination of (legal) factors can create big changes in running performance. (I hesitate to bring up Farah as a direct comparison, because I know where that will lead.)

    I have to confess that when I made this thread I thought "race" would be the big angle. I detest the whole race thing, but I know the debate will always be there. And so...white guys can run 2:05!! But this seems to good to be tue.

    So....Solinsky, anyone? I know he ran 13:12 in 2007, but 26:59 in 2010 at 25 is still a surprise, right?

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Andrew Jones said 9 months ago

    So....Solinsky, anyone? I know he ran 13:12 in 2007, but 26:59 in 2010 at 25 is still a surprise, right?

    After a 13:12 at age 22, the 26:59 at 25 for Solinsky was a surprise at the time (perhaps because he was a 10000m debutante I recall), but not an outlandish progression by any means.

    Let's call them "Non-African" lists. Top 10 perfs at 10000m here:

    Rupp: 26:44
    Solinsky: 26:59
    Levins: 27:07
    Barrios: 27:08
    Rupp: 27:08
    Rupp: 27:08
    Rupp: 27:10
    Pinto: 27:12
    Mamede: 27:13
    Roncero: 27:14

    As a general reference, here are the equivalents from the IAAF Men's Road Running points table with a "2:05" Marathon in mind:

    27:01 | 59:00 |2:05:58

    Number of Non-African Sub-2:06 Marathons

    1 (but has to be disqualified, as Ryan Hall's 2:04:58 was run at the --PTP-- Boston Marathon in 2011)

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  • oldlegs User since:
    May 1st, 2006
    Posts: 42
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    Report    REPLY #79 

    oldlegs said 9 months ago

    I am late to the party here, but I have less trouble believing his "progression" when I see his IAAF progression. In 2008--at age 17- he ran 29:21 for 10k and 8:12 for 3k. This guy is a mega talent. How many kids in Canada have EVER run 29:21 at that age? Sure, if you take his progression since 2011 on it looks weaker, but that could be explained (as Moen does) with injuries and major training lapses. My view--talent find its place. This past year looks flawless, but this guy has serious innate ability. See: https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/norway/sondre-nordstad-moen-227935

    This post was edited by oldlegs 9 months ago . 
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  • new-post-last-visitanonymous Anonymous
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    Andrew Jones said 9 months ago

    I'll take just one more crack at this, as several on this thread seem to have trouble connecting Canova with doping. Translation problems aside, this interview published in RW some years ago really highlights the kind of rhetoric that AC uses -- rhetoric that I find rather disturbing:

    "We had the self-transfusion for somebody—for a period, for a period—because it was not out of the law. And also, like at the first finisher, the first way of [Lasse] Viren in 1970, using the self-transfusion, and at that time all the world looked at his [actions] as very advanced science. But not something like doping—[it] became doping only in 1985. It is like now using at sea level, the tent without air [hyperbaric chamber]…So now it is ridiculous to speak about this. But maybe in 10 years somebody says that this is not allowed. But in 2020 you cannot tell who was using this in 2000 and was doped.

    “The problem is the mentality, no? In the historical moment it is very important to see what is doping, what is not doping, no? If you are allowed, you suppose it is about science. So we used it, but not all, because somebody refused in Italy. For example, Panetta, Stefano Mei, Bordin always refuse, every type of situation. But Cova, winning Olympics in 1984 and Antibo in 1984, they tried to do this…So, what happened after this? In ’85 was outlawed doping, and nobody used—finished…From ‘80-84, was the Italian Conconi, that won using this system. That was not doping at that time. But I want to tell, was that when Antibo finished using this, he improved a lot, for example…Cova finished his career, practically in ’86 because he had an injury. Maybe also losing some motivation because in ’82 he won European, in ’83 the World Championships, in ’84 won Olympics, in ’85 won both the European Cup 5 and 10. So after this, also his motivation was finished for Alberto Cova. But Antibo continued. For example, in 1988 he was 2nd in the Olympics.”

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