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Episode 3- The Marathon


Posted 2 weeks ago by Trackie | Source: The Coaching Equation

User Comments

  • anonymous Anonymous
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    cooperaa said 2 weeks ago

    Enjoyed the talk, guys. Thanks for sharing!

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  • kinrunner User since:
    Sep 27th, 2013
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    KinRunner said 2 weeks ago

    Quoting: cooperaa
    "Enjoyed the talk, guys. Thanks for sharing!"


    Thanks for listening!

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    JustCurious said 2 weeks ago

    I need some marathon stats from these coaches.

    How many athletes have they coached for this distance?
    What kind of results are they getting?
    How many marathons has each coach raced?
    What is their plan for a new Canadian record for both men and women? Why should an athlete choose these coaches over other Canadian coaches who have already coached a hundred marathoners?

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  • kinrunner User since:
    Sep 27th, 2013
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    KinRunner said 2 weeks ago

    I'll bite and hope I'm not being trolled by the same person talking about coaches never running a marathon in another thread...

    I've Coached Blair Morgan to his debut this past spring in prague, and about 16 2:45-3:15 men and women. However I've been mentored by Boyd and seen his system closely with the elites he has worked with. Yes My "stats" for the marathon and coaching in general may be "weak" I've only really been individually coaching for the last 3 ish years after apprenticing under Boyd for 7 now, as well as my junior group and the Queen's crew and working with John and Steve W. as additional mentors. I bring this up as I think this is severely lacking in our sport right now, and it's an exceptional way to build up new coaches so that when they get a chance to work with a Blair Morgan, or anyone of our current top people they aren't making mistakes right away and have mentors to problem solve and discuss with and look at general plans and ideas. (and I can tell you from chatting with numerous top coaches in canada they are all chatting, discussing reading and trying to get better every day and every year, no one coach has it completely figured out)

    I've never raced a marathon as a nagging unsolvable hip injury has kept me out for the last 3.5 years. However, I don't think as a coach you have to have "raced" an event to coach, plenty of coaches were never good 800m runners it doesn't mean that if they don't study, apprentice and constantly learn and work with those athletes that they can't learn and master the event or at the very least become a good coach.

    Plan for canadian record... well I don't really plan for an athlete from the time I meet them to break the CR. As I mentioned in the podcast, it's about getting an athlete who has shown aptitude for the distance events, has interest in pursuing the event, and making incremental changes year after year to produce better performances. Everyone thought Bairu would easily break the CR and he didn't. It's not always about having the talent or raw ability, it's about getting a bit better and learning every build ( not to say that bairu and jerry didn't- I don;t know the details of why bairu just couldn't do it) and maximizing one's potential. something we never really know, and can only hypothesize.

    As for the last part, I don't know if there are really that many active coaches who have coached athletes to a sub elite level say sub 2:18/2:45 ( I just picked these numbers as they are our most recent standards. (in no particular order)

    DST - Reid, Eric, Rob, Trevor H.
    Rich Lee- Natasha, DW, Rob ( no active marathoners)
    Hugh Cameron- Sylvia ( i'm sure countless others) ( no active marathoners??)
    Eddie Raposo? ( no active marathoners??)
    Dave Reid ? ( no active marathoners??)
    Steve Boyd DW, Rejean, Lyndsay T.
    Steve Weiler Leslie Sexton
    Dave Mills - Lanni Marchant
    Rick Mannen - Krista ( not actively working with her)
    John Lofranco - Mel Myrand
    Felix ?
    Josh S- Dayna P.
    Dave K. -Rachel Hannah ( not currently active due to injuries I believe)

    I'm sure others can fill in the gaps but those are the ones I can list off the top of my head who I think are actively coaching and coaching marathoners currently, But there looks to only be 6 coaches in Canada who are actively coaching athletes at that level. my point being twofold, 1) There aren't that many coaches who coach the event at a high level, I don't think some of them offer online coaching, or have only done it with 1 athlete. and 2) it's incredibly hard to develop athletes to get to that level, and in general we don't have that many of them in Canada! So it's not necessarily a matter of if a coach has done it before or not, it's partially have they had an athlete with that ability, trust them as a coach to reach that dream! It takes years to develop top marathoners. If you look at most all of the athletes on the list my guess would be the average time the coach worked with that athlete before hitting this level to be about 3-4 years. Our next crop of marathon coaches could be coaching athletes right now whose names we don't even consider for the marathon.

    As for why you should pick John or I as a coach vs anyone else. I think it goes the same way when anyone is picking a coach, is the fit right? Does the athlete believe in the way the coach anticipates setting up training for that athlete? have other athletes had good experiences, or currently are having good experiences? costs? support? Online vs in person? Does the coach help build them up, help them reach their goals? Some athletes require different things from coaches, and ultimately it comes down to fit. if you assume that most coaches coaching runners in and around those standards have similar enough technical skills then I believe it really comes down to the intangibles and what the athlete believes is the best fit for them. I tell my juniors when looking for a collegiate coach ( after considering academics) they need to find a coach they connect with, they feel cares about them as a human, and wants to see the athlete grow as a person and an athlete. I truly feel if all these things line up and technical wise it's fairly similar across the coaches an athlete will succeed
    when they have a coach with the qualities listed above more times than when they don't.

    Hopefully you aren't just a troll and sincerely are looking to start a productive conversation! Please don;t let me down Trackie.

    This post was edited by KinRunner 2 weeks ago . 
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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    JustCurious said 2 weeks ago

    I often wonder what Derrick Spafford or somebody with his approach (not a track guy) would do with all the top Canadians

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 2 weeks ago

    Quoting: JustCurious
    "I often wonder what Derrick Spafford or somebody with his approach (not a track guy) would do with all the top Canadians"


    He would bring the Murphy clan out of retirement and rewrite the record books!

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  • steveweiler User since:
    Mar 28th, 2012
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    SteveWeiler said 2 weeks ago

    Expanding on the list of active coaches of Canadians that went sub 2:18/2:45:

    DST - Reid Coolsaet, Eric Gillis, Robin Watson
    Rich Lee- Natasha Wodak, Dylan Wykes, Robin Watson, Catherine Watkins
    *Peter Watson might also get credit for coaching Rob to a sub-2:18?
    Hugh Cameron - Sylvia Ruegger, Matt McInnes, Matt Loiselle, Nicole Stevenson
    Eddie Raposo - Andrew Smith, Tara Quinn Smith (I'm not sure on timing of when they merged with Hugh, but likely credit to both Eddie and Hugh on these athletes PBs)
    Steve Boyd - Dylan Wykes, Rejean Chaison, Lyndsay Tessier
    *who coached Boyd to his sub-2:18?
    Steve Weiler - Leslie Sexton
    *when Wilder ran 2:42, she was in Hawaii and either Laan or Robbie W were coaching her
    Dave Mills - Lanni Marchant
    Rick Mannen - Krista Duchene
    John Lofranco - Mel Myrand
    Josh S - Dayna Pidhoresky
    Dave K. -Rachel Hannah
    Trent S - Marilyn Arsenault
    Matt Clout - Erin Burrett

    Not sure on coach, but also sub-2:18/2:45 in the last 10 years or so:
    Ziak, Danny K, Macharia, Osaduik, Kangogo
    Bazeley, Johns, Njeri, Doerksen, Korir, Labeaud, Kortchaguina, Coll, Jones, Kroshus, Avery, Raby, Greenwood, Sherbino

    This post was edited by SteveWeiler 2 weeks ago . 
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  • mauricew User since:
    Dec 5th, 2012
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    mauricew said 2 weeks ago

    John Hill - Kim Doerksen, Neasa Coll, Ellie Greenwood, Lissa Zimmer
    Jim Finlayson - Catrin Jones

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  • kinrunner User since:
    Sep 27th, 2013
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    KinRunner said 1 week ago

    Thanks for adding to the list Steve and Maurice!

    Can anyone fill in the gaps on the ones Steve listed? I think it would be interesting to see what coaches have worked with who, and who is still actively coaching.

    Boyd was self coached to his 2:18

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Anonymous said 1 week ago

    Who coaches Kip kangogo
    who coaches SAMI? he's going to run sub 2:20 soon.

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    GoodStuff said 1 week ago

    https://youtu.be/HYhNftFY0lc

    https://youtu.be/P7d6f60jHig

    https://youtu.be/DVR6_326x-k

    https://youtu.be/aTtukOMlSOI

    https://youtu.be/3s_Zr9D-bWk

    This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 1 week ago . 
    Message from Moderator:
    Brooks Marathon Project videos
    If you have issues/questions please contact moderator@trackie.com.
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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    cooperaa said 1 week ago

    I thought Kip was coached by Rick Mannen. https://www.facebook.com/rick.mannen/posts/805750272879936

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  • anonymous Anonymous
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    Coach Hortian said 1 week ago

    The decision to use a high week/low week format versus consistent weekly building may vary for considerations relating to the athlete. Ex. a rookie marathoner vs a veteran marathoner and/or a history of injuries with high mileage vs injury free. Low weeks can provide a stimulus for repair and rebuild (increased fitness) as well as provide an opportunity to work on the other key components pertaining to marathoning. Not a fan of the one method fits all mentality assigned to the notion that all athletes should do one or the other.

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  • kinrunner User since:
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    KinRunner said 1 week ago

    Quoting: Coach Hortian
    "The decision to use a high week/low week format versus consistent weekly building may vary for considerations relating to the athlete. Ex. a rookie marathoner vs a veteran marathoner and/or a history of injuries with high mileage vs injury free. Low weeks can provide a stimulus for repair and rebuild (increased fitness) as well as provide an opportunity to work on the other key components pertaining to marathoning. Not a fan of the one method fits all mentality assigned to the notion that all athletes should do one or the other."


    Agreed, it certainly isn't a one template fits all approach, In the context of the podcast we mostly referred to our elite or experienced marathoners, I use a different approach for my "weekend warriors" or rec athletes. No coaching at all is one size fits all or one standard plan, or atleast good coaching. When I spoke about consistent weeks it wasn't consistent build, it's largely placed on a mileage number the athlete has handled before, For example Blair only did a couple more miles per week than he had average in normal training but did actual specific marathon work. So in this regard using the consistent weeks, and building build after build rather than within the build I find is a safer way to develop an athlete over multiple builds to further their career and decrease risk of injury.

    This post was edited by KinRunner 1 week ago . 
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  • jlofranco User since:
    Apr 17th, 2014
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    jlofranco said 1 week ago

    Really happy to see the pod has garnered some comments again. In terms of who I have coached, Melanie Myrand 2:39, Shelley Doucet 2:45. On the men's side best result is Jacques-Sylvain Lecointre 2:26 (CIM so downhill). I have run sub-2:45 myself though being a guy that's not all that impressive haha. Also the way I coached myself to 2:45 is not at all the way I coach runners now.

    As for my plan for the Canadian record...I doubt that person will be coached by me unless Cameron is looking to make a change LOL...And as for why someone should be coached by me...that's not the point of the podcast. I'm not really trying to recruit people to come and run. If anyone wants help, I'm happy to discuss, but this isn't meant to say "this is how I do it, it's the best way" it's more meant to provide some detail on how it was done in a couple particular cases. As Brant said, there's not really a template, it all depends on the athlete. I definitely have an idea of what I think is important (as described in the episode) but how that plays out for one person may be different from another.

    I like Adam's (I assume?) comment because it's very true. A good example is Jacques-Sylvain: his build-up for CIM was about 7 weeks. The reason is that his feet are super fragile and he's gotten hurt in his build-ups a couple times now. The issue we identified was that he was hammering his easy runs...so we switched the focus to just the workouts, and took the pressure off any kind of volume. He still ran a lot, but by focusing on the workouts and nailing some very specific things in a short time frame, he was able to trust the recovery days could be slow. Deena Kastor did one up/one down, I used to do 3 up/1 down in regular training with university kids, but I found they'd get sick halfway through week 3, so we moved to 2 up/1 down. There have been marathon builds where we used a 9 day cycle and basically had one workout for each 3 day block and moved the recovery days around as needed. So sometimes back to back, with 4 days between, or sometimes 2 or 3 depends on how the person is feeling. I think that's the big key: it's all very day to day.

    Thanks for the genuine and collegial discussion.

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  • new-post-last-visitjlofranco User since:
    Apr 17th, 2014
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    jlofranco said 1 week ago

    Quoting: SteveWeiler
    "Expanding on the list of active coaches of Canadians that went sub 2:18/2:45:
    Matt Clout - Erin Burrett

    Not sure on coach, but also sub-2:18/2:45 in the last 10 years or so:
    Ziak, Danny K, Macharia, Osaduik, Kangogo
    Bazeley, Johns, Njeri, Doerksen, Korir, Labeaud, Kortchaguina, Coll, Jones, Kroshus, Avery, Raby, Greenwood, Sherbino"


    Claude David coaches Ariane Raby
    Matt Clout coaches Emily Setlack now, too I think.

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