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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  GOAT

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• User since:
  Oct 11th, 2013

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  MJD said 6 years ago

  Still fairly young.

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• Anonymous

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  Double OT said 6 years ago

  Once he breaks this record Ethiopia will be the greatest long distance nation of all time, if not already. Ethiopia>Kenya.

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Double OT
  "Once he breaks this record Ethiopia will be the greatest long distance nation of all time, if not already. Ethiopia>Kenya."

  
  
  
  Ethiopia's best is better than Kenya's best, but Kenya definitely has more depth.

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  Mil said 6 years ago

  Thanks to CBC for the Berlin Marathon Stream + the Diamond League streams.

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  I think it's really close these days for GOAT. If Bekele beats the WR (especially if Kipchoge is in the race) I'll give the edge to him over Geb.
  
  Zatopek, owing to the nature of his dominance over his competition, would also be in the conversation, but it's so hard to compare eras.
  
  This race showed the immense talent of Kenny, though. Even now, years past his prime and after many injuries, if he can get even some months of solid training under his belt, he can still do amazing things.
  
  Some have said the WR would have gone here, if not for some tactical activity between Kenny and Kipsang. I would agree, but Kenny -- as a result of some of his marathon follies up until now -- doesn't have the confidence yet to break away earlier against a runner the quality of Kipsang.
  
  Great coverage of the race, and agree to thank CBC for picking it up.

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  AI said 6 years ago

  Schnell schnell schnell!

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  Modern Man said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Andrew Jones
  "I think it's really close these days for GOAT. If Bekele beats the WR (especially if Kipchoge is in the race) I'll give the edge to him over Geb.
  
  Zatopek, owing to the nature of his dominance over his competition, would also be in the conversation, but it's so hard to compare eras.
  
  This race showed the immense talent of Kenny, though. Even now, years past his prime and after many injuries, if he can get even some months of solid training under his belt, he can still do amazing things.
  
  Some have said the WR would have gone here, if not for some tactical activity between Kenny and Kipsang. I would agree, but Kenny -- as a result of some of his marathon follies up until now -- doesn't have the confidence yet to break away earlier against a runner the quality of Kipsang.
  
  Great coverage of the race, and agree to thank CBC for picking it up."

  
  
  
  Actually, it's very easy to compare eras. We're talking about the best, and oddly enough, running is one of those sports where "the best" is actually incredibly easy to quantify; in fact it's implicit in the result itself! (The time, in case my point hasn't hit home). Dominance over competition, development of quality training practises, and feasibility of "the professional athlete" are irrelevant in discussion of "the best", though admittedly not in the discussion of "most impressive", or "most removed from the statistical mean/median". The fact is, is that Zatopek was slower than Bekele, and therefore "worse" at running. Whether this was because he was working full time, following currently outdated training practises, or any other reason you can think of, he was still slower. You don't get crowned the best of all time because you were the first guy to train systematically, or the first guy to run high mileage while your competition was training inefficiently. Perhaps most innovative, or ambitious, or keen.

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• Anonymous

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Modern Man
  "Actually, it's very easy to compare eras. We're talking about the best, and oddly enough, running is one of those sports where "the best" is actually incredibly easy to quantify; in fact it's implicit in the result itself! (The time, in case my point hasn't hit home). Dominance over competition, development of quality training practises, and feasibility of "the professional athlete" are irrelevant in discussion of "the best", though admittedly not in the discussion of "most impressive", or "most removed from the statistical mean/median". The fact is, is that Zatopek was slower than Bekele, and therefore "worse" at running. Whether this was because he was working full time, following currently outdated training practises, or any other reason you can think of, he was still slower. You don't get crowned the best of all time because you were the first guy to train systematically, or the first guy to run high mileage while your competition was training inefficiently. Perhaps most innovative, or ambitious, or keen."

  
  
  I couldn't disagree with you more. I feel as though the best runner and the fastest runner are not one in the same. Ask any track expert who the best 400m hurdler of all time is and I guarantee you nearly 100% of the answers would be Edwin Moses. If you know your track I'll bet his name popped in your head first when you read this. Very few would say world record holder Kevin Young.

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• Anonymous

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Modern Man
  "Actually, it's very easy to compare eras. We're talking about the best, and oddly enough, running is one of those sports where "the best" is actually incredibly easy to quantify; in fact it's implicit in the result itself! (The time, in case my point hasn't hit home). Dominance over competition, development of quality training practises, and feasibility of "the professional athlete" are irrelevant in discussion of "the best", though admittedly not in the discussion of "most impressive", or "most removed from the statistical mean/median". The fact is, is that Zatopek was slower than Bekele, and therefore "worse" at running. Whether this was because he was working full time, following currently outdated training practises, or any other reason you can think of, he was still slower. You don't get crowned the best of all time because you were the first guy to train systematically, or the first guy to run high mileage while your competition was training inefficiently. Perhaps most innovative, or ambitious, or keen."

  
  
  Well, running the fastest time definitely makes you FOAT, not necessarily GOAT, Not to diminish Bekele's accomplishments, but greatness is a little more complex than speed to get from point A to point B.

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Modern Man
  "Actually, it's very easy to compare eras. We're talking about the best, and oddly enough, running is one of those sports where "the best" is actually incredibly easy to quantify; in fact it's implicit in the result itself! (The time, in case my point hasn't hit home). Dominance over competition, development of quality training practises, and feasibility of "the professional athlete" are irrelevant in discussion of "the best", though admittedly not in the discussion of "most impressive", or "most removed from the statistical mean/median". The fact is, is that Zatopek was slower than Bekele, and therefore "worse" at running. Whether this was because he was working full time, following currently outdated training practises, or any other reason you can think of, he was still slower. You don't get crowned the best of all time because you were the first guy to train systematically, or the first guy to run high mileage while your competition was training inefficiently. Perhaps most innovative, or ambitious, or keen."

  
  
  Congratulations to Nathan Brannen and Charles Philibert-Thiboutot, not to mention Graham Hood, Kevin Sullivan, Doug Consiglio, Steve Agar, Taylor Milne. You will all go down in history as better runners than the great Peter Snell. Because your 1500m PBs are faster than him that automatically makes you great than he ever was.
  
  See the holes in your argument?? Snell held world records, won 3 Olympic golds, and is the only man since the early 1900s to win both the 800 and 1500 in the same Olympics. I think he ranks higher on the all time greatest list than the very good Canadian runners mentioned.

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  Modern Man, I couldn't disagree with you more. GOAT's operative word is "Greatest", and not "Fastest". "Greatest" would involve an innately contextual discussion, where the era in which the athlete existed dictates the following:
  
  >number of WRs achieved
  >WR quality (see amount by which the record was broken, and how long the record lasted)
  >championship wins (see Olympics as a comparable)
  >quality of competitive landscape*(Zatopek had little African competition, but better European foes)
  >effect on cohorts and future generations of runners
  
  Some other factors:
  
  >audacious accomplishments (see Zatopek's Olympic triple)
  >range of abilities (see Geb's 1500 Indoor WC)
  >success on a variety of surfaces
  
  *One thing that I think Steve B. has mentioned is intensely contextual, and that is the fact that Zatopek was operating post-world war, where a whole generation of athletes and competitors were deleted by war casualties and war-created privation.

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  Carra23 said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Andrew Jones
  "Modern Man, I couldn't disagree with you more. GOAT's operative word is "Greatest", and not "Fastest". "Greatest" would involve an innately contextual discussion, where the era in which the athlete existed dictates the following:
  
  >number of WRs achieved
  >WR quality (see amount by which the record was broken, and how long the record lasted)
  >championship wins (see Olympics as a comparable)
  >quality of competitive landscape*(Zatopek had little African competition, but better European foes)
  >effect on cohorts and future generations of runners
  
  Some other factors:
  
  >audacious accomplishments (see Zatopek's Olympic triple)
  >range of abilities (see Geb's 1500 Indoor WC)
  >success on a variety of surfaces
  
  *One thing that I think Steve B. has mentioned is intensely contextual, and that is the fact that Zatopek was operating post-world war, where a whole generation of athletes and competitors were deleted by war casualties and war-created privation."

  
  
  A couple of things.
  
  I don't understand why fastest cannot be greatest. Even before this summer (where he absolutely confirmed status as the GOAT), Usain Bolt was already considered the greatest by many. Ask 100 canadians at your local shopping mall why Bolt is the best, and the vast majority are going to say "well, because he is the fastest." Why is it different for distance running?
  
  Jones, you and others (oldster) place way too much value on context. nothing will ever stand up to accomplishments from 100 or 200 or 1000 years ago if you claim that context is what matters most. Zatopek's triple is admirable, but he was competing against farmers. By your logic, the random guys under the oppressive reign of Stalin running 15:30 5k's are greater track and field athletes than Cam Levins or Mo Ahmed. We might as well just give all of the athletes who emerged from oppressive situations handicaps -- they can start 10s ahead -- they have grown up under major hardship that must be worthy at least 10s.
  
  Better yet, under your suggestion, I think we should develop a score for appropriate track and field handicapping. Athletes entering the Olympics and world championships will fill out an extensive survey, which prompts athletes for information on ethnic background, social-economic status, nationality etc. We could use this score to compare those to the turmoil and level of oppression faced by those of similar social characteristics in the region and world, and adjust the times for each athlete accordingly.

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  ahutch said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Carra23
  "I don't understand why fastest cannot be greatest. Even before this summer (where he absolutely confirmed status as the GOAT), Usain Bolt was already considered the greatest by many. Ask 100 canadians at your local shopping mall why Bolt is the best, and the vast majority are going to say "well, because he is the fastest." Why is it different for distance running?"

  
  
  Okay, if you want to see how that works for sprinting, try this question: When future history books about the sport are written, who will be considered a greater sprinter: Jessie Owens (10.3 in 1936) or Gavin Smellie (10.09 in 2015)?
  
  Oh wait, I already know your answer. Fastest is greatest.

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  Jones, you and others (oldster) place way too much value on context. nothing will ever stand up to accomplishments from 100 or 200 or 1000 years ago if you claim that context is what matters most. Zatopek's triple is admirable, but he was competing against farmers.

  
  
  Actually, if I were to do a GOAT rating, as great as Zatopek was, I would place him second, and put one of Kenny or Geb (TBD, as Kenny's not done yet) ahead of the Czech.
  
  The context of things is what makes this discussion so much fun, I think. Granted, Zatopek's competition was less strong than subsequent eras, but Zatopek contributed so much to the lore (and empirical "science") of distance running. Not to mention his sportsmanship and general citizenry. And he was no slouch where, over the 10000m distance he really had no peers -- his only "opponent" being the stopwatch. As Steve B. alluded to, when only a handful of runners had broken 30-minutes for 10000m, Zatopek broke an hour for 20000m!

  This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago . 

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  Okay, so I took a crack at a Male GOAT chart that includes the usual suspects. Hopefully it is legible. Current runners did okay, as it turned out.
  
  Start lobbing grenades now!
  
  

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  ...also did a chart for the Female GOAT:
  
  

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  AI said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Andrew Jones
  "Okay, so I took a crack at a Male GOAT chart that includes the usual suspects. Hopefully it is legible. Current runners did okay, as it turned out.
  
  Start lobbing grenades now!
  
  "

  
  
  I think you mostly have it right, aside from the somewhat vague "Historical Impact". Are we talking historical impact on running? Or political impact?
  
  I feel Geb's '8' in this category is a little bit low. Considering that he will inspire generations of runners (including Bekele and the current marathon crop). And in recent years, Geb has pondered a run at the presidency of his country. If elected, would you bump him up 2 points to a 10?
  
  This is Kenny's one weak category. Not being particularly eloquent, I fear he will never be 'historical material'.

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  I think you mostly have it right, aside from the somewhat vague "Historical Impact". Are we talking historical impact on running?
  ------------------
  Yes, I was thinking about their overall effect on running. The two best examples to me are Zatopek's aforementioned revolutionary training loads, and Benoit-Samuelson's groundbreaking win in the first Olympic Women's Marathon. If a runner came after a groundbreaker, I marked them down a bit, and that is unfair, really -- but there you go.

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  NC Blogger said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Carra23
  "I don't understand why fastest cannot be greatest. Even before this summer (where he absolutely confirmed status as the GOAT), Usain Bolt was already considered the greatest by many. Ask 100 canadians at your local shopping mall why Bolt is the best, and the vast majority are going to say "well, because he is the fastest." Why is it different for distance running?"

  
  
  The fastest CAN be the greatest, but I'll agree with most above that it's not the only factor. The only two men to defend Olympic Titles in both the 5000m and 10,000m at successive Olympic Games are Viren (72 and 76) and Mo. Any discussion of the greatest 5,000 / 10,000 runners of all time would have to include these two names, even though Bekele has run much faster.
  
  I think what the argument boils down to is, are we talking about the best time-trial runner, or the best racer. Those are two very different things. Zatopek never had any rabbits. That is a relatively new initiative.
  
  Finally Andrew, I do believe Bekele is the only man on your list to win the World XC title - and he did it 6 times (including 5 in a row). I assume that is why he is rated 10/10 on surface?

  This post was edited by NC Blogger 6 years ago . 

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  AI said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Andrew Jones
  "I think you mostly have it right, aside from the somewhat vague "Historical Impact". Are we talking historical impact on running?
  ------------------
  Yes, I was thinking about their overall effect on running. The two best examples to me are Zatopek's aforementioned revolutionary training loads, and Benoit-Samuelson's groundbreaking win in the first Olympic Women's Marathon. If a runner came after a groundbreaker, I marked them down a bit, and that is unfair, really -- but there you go."

  
  
  This, for me, is what will make the GOAT a cyclical argument. The first 5 categories are empirical. The last category is subjective, since influenced by perception and personality. Kenny seems to be a fan favourite among serious track fans. Geb, by comparison, has a rather charismatic personality and is liked both by a range of fans - from trackies to hobby joggers.
  
  Event range, you ranked Kenny a '9' and Geb a '10'. I'm interested in your reasoning behind this decision? While Kenny hasn't quite proved himself over the marathon distance, he has notched 11 world xc titles. And while his attempts at the mile were timid, I feel he was capable of more. For example, the 5000m in Lausanne 2003 when he clocked a 200m segment on the last lap in 24s. (With apologies to any people who compare Kenny to Mo, but please please please - Kenny is in a different league.)
  
  Not to nitpick - I think you have generally done a good job with these rankings. Kenny always leaves me a bit wistful - the most talented, but I think of what could have been. Geb was the king of his era. But it's a toss up between the two!

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  Andrew Jones said 6 years ago

  Finally Andrew, I do believe Bekele is the only man on your list to win the World XC title - and he did it 6 times (including 5 in a row). I assume that is why he is rated 10/10 on surface?
  -------------------
  Indeed, and that is one area that Kenny has a big GOAT edge over Geb. Zatopek was quite proficient on the country, as well, winning often, but I don't believe he took it too seriously.
  
  ###
  
  
  Event range, you ranked Kenny a '9' and Geb a '10'. I'm interested in your reasoning behind this decision?
  ----------------
  That was tough, but Geb's Indoor WC 1500m win in Japan was amazing, and while Kenny etc. have incredible range, nobody else has won an "underdistance" world title like that.
  
  ###
  
  BTW, I realized later that I had written Greta Waitz down for the Female GOAT list, but switched Radcliffe in instead. I'm rethinking that one.

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: Carra23
  "A couple of things.
  I don't understand why fastest cannot be greatest.
  Jones, you and others (oldster) place way too much value on context. "

  
  
  You certainly don't understand.
  To the first thing: saying that fastest IS NOT NECESSARILY greatest is a completely different statement than saying fastest CANNOT BE greatest.
  To the second thing: Greatest of ALL TIME is a historical question. Context is pretty much the central concept in history.
  
  CRITICAL THINKING!

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  Anonymous said 6 years ago

  Quoting: NC Blogger
  
  I think what the argument boils down to is, are we talking about the best time-trial runner, or the best racer. Those are two very different things. Zatopek never had any rabbits. That is a relatively new initiative.
  

  
  
  I'm not sure if that is the thing it boils down to. Kenny and Geb were great time trialers, yes, but they could also win championship races. They could win in races that often involved the typical wind-up and big kicks but also (Kenny B in '08 5k for example) by front running away from the competition without rabbits. These two had abilities to do both not be stuck on one race plan.

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