Event Results >>
Western International Invitational
London, ON
September 24th, 2016
User Comments
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Did the course change?
This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Did the course change?"
Results are similar to last years: http://www.trackie.com/track-and-field/Results/2015-western-international/4488/
Why do you think the course changed? Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354DQ said 6 years ago
There's definitely a lot more male runners under 26min compared to last year. Seems like a pretty talented/deep field!
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: DQ
"There's definitely a lot more male runners under 26min compared to last year. Seems like a pretty talented/deep field!"
Gee, I was just looking at the times and thought the competition was weak. Unless the course was extremely tough, times have changed. My University team's 5th runner was a 30:30 10k guy! I was thinking we could have placed 1 through 5 in this race. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Gee, I was just looking at the times and thought the competition was weak. Unless the course was extremely tough, times have changed. My University team's 5th runner was a 30:30 10k guy! I was thinking we could have placed 1 through 5 in this race."
What University and What year? Course is SLOW compared to easy track grass courses. Stats on the top guys:
Corey Bellemore
3:43.88 1500
Jack Sheffar
3000 Indoor 8:19.15, 5000 14:42
Ben Carson
3000 8:31.32
Connor Black
5000 14:27.40, 10,000 30:11
Connor Darlington
3:42.53 1500m Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Ottawa U. 1986. John Halvorsen, Bob Rice, Alain Boucher, Richard Charette, and John's older brother Hokan. Maybe not fair to compare any team to this one as this is likely the best team all time. Four of the five were individual national champions in xc and/or 3km steeplechase.
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
What sort of training did you do that made you faster then all of the guys today? @1986 Ottawa u runner
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anon said 6 years ago
Guys did 1st 5K not much faster than the women. Front end totally bunched before they went up the hill to the 2nd loop.
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anon
"Guys did 1st 5K not much faster than the women. Front end totally bunched before they went up the hill to the 2nd loop."
What are you talking about? They were through ~90 seconds faster than the women. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"What University and What year? Course is SLOW compared to easy track grass courses. Stats on the top guys:
Corey Bellemore
3:43.88 1500
Jack Sheffar
3000 Indoor 8:19.15, 5000 14:42
Ben Carson
3000 8:31.32
Connor Black
5000 14:27.40, 10,000 30:11
Connor Darlington
3:42.53 1500m"
Track times go out the window in XC, you should know that. It means absolutely nothing. Look at their past XC seasons. Bellemore was 10th at CIS with a 30:50 10km, I don't doubt the 24:40 he ran is the same course. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"What sort of training did you do that made you faster then all of the guys today? @1986 Ottawa u runner"
I think it was about talent more than the training. The Halvorsen brothers attended U of O because they were local and the other three were all gathered at U of O as they were all coached by the late Denis Landry who was working for Athletics Canada at the time. Rice came from a reserve near Parry Sound, Boucher and Charette came from the same High School in North Bay which is where coach Landry taught before taking a position with Athletics Canada.
We had an amazing training group for a few years. The best and most difficult workout we used to do had us doing 5 sets of 2 x hill repeats (hill was quite steep and took about 45s. to run). We did a roughly 1 minute approach run to the hill, ran up the hill, then accelerated after cresting the top for about 10 seconds. In between sets we did 2 x bounding (A skipping) up the hill. These workouts were fiercely competitive! I'm not exaggerating when I say we had about 20 guys that were low 31 minutes or better for 10k in our group. Of course they weren't all at U of O. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"I think it was about talent more than the training. The Halvorsen brothers attended U of O because they were local and the other three were all gathered at U of O as they were all coached by the late Denis Landry who was working for Athletics Canada at the time. Rice came from a reserve near Parry Sound, Boucher and Charette came from the same High School in North Bay which is where coach Landry taught before taking a position with Athletics Canada.
We had an amazing training group for a few years. The best and most difficult workout we used to do had us doing 5 sets of 2 x hill repeats (hill was quite steep and took about 45s. to run). We did a roughly 1 minute approach run to the hill, ran up the hill, then accelerated after cresting the top for about 10 seconds. In between sets we did 2 x bounding (A skipping) up the hill. These workouts were fiercely competitive! I'm not exaggerating when I say we had about 20 guys that were low 31 minutes or better for 10k in our group. Of course they weren't all at U of O."
At the moment I am training by myself and don't have a specific training plan and would be interested to get in contact with you to see the sort of training that you and the other U of Ottawa guys did? Quote comment -
User since:
Sep 24th, 2016
Posts: 3Opeongo Runner said 6 years ago
I was running for U of Waterloo at this time and on work term in Ottawa in the fall of 1986. I was welcomed to train with the U of O team and this was awesome and enlightening. I disagree with the comment that it "was about talent more than training". These guys all had trained hard for many years by this time - world junior teams, OFSAA records, commonwealth teams. They knew what was required in their training to perform well. I did a few workouts in the Arboretum and at the old ski hill. What struck me was how this team approached workouts. Each workout was high quality. Denis clearly explained the workout then quietly observed and oversaw. Bob was consistently in the lead group and could pull away if he decided to, while Richard and Alain would be in the lead group one workout and slightly off the back in other workouts. John was not at most of the workouts I got to attend. Hokan was another solid workout guy and Rick Simpson (a first year guy from Ottawa, I think that's right) was also working hard in the lead group each workout. Denis seemed to accept and support this individual approach to training, I believe leaving room for elite athletes (elite student-athletes) to measure out their training efforts to be in top form on race day when the performance mattered. To me the team was calm and rightfully confident. I think Rick and in subsequent years Terry Burwell (also an Opeongo Runner) benefited from this team environment/culture.
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Note: Our Waterloo team was decent that year coming second to U of O at OUs. (Andrew Krucker, Harvey Mitro, Nic Cipp, Tim Rose, Tim Collins, Chris Rogers and myself.) CIs was in London that year on a new course at Thames Valley Golf. It was a super hot 20+degrees that day (very hot for November). John won the race in a fast time and since then there have been some faster times on that 10k course. I have seen Bob's list of course record times, but don't recall were that first CIs time stands. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Opeongo Runner
"I was running for U of Waterloo at this time and on work term in Ottawa in the fall of 1986. I was welcomed to train with the U of O team and this was awesome and enlightening. I disagree with the comment that it "was about talent more than training". These guys all had trained hard for many years by this time - world junior teams, OFSAA records, commonwealth teams.
Kevin, what I meant by my comment was that the five guys I mentioned were very talented runners and came to the U of O program having already put together impressive resumes. Of course they all trained hard for years prior to 86, but not much together. Actually 86 was the only season they all trained together, with John (as you mentioned) only occasionally joining the group (he had his own coach from Norway). The group's approach to training was second to none due in large part to our coach Denis Landry. He was a very calm, intelligent man and always knew what to say and when to say it to get the most out of his athletes. It wasn't my intention to discredit the training, simply I was trying to stress that these guys had the kind of talent to succeed under most any program. It's unfortunate that Bob had his legs crushed in a freak car accident (he was loading a tv in the back of a car when another car lost control coming down a slippery hill and pinned his legs between the bumpers). Had this not happened we would almost surely be talking about him as perhaps the greatest xc runner Canada had ever produced. He was that good!
Richard Simpson joined the team in 87 (he did a victory lap in HS). It was Rick Brant (1:47-800m runner) that was usually our 6th man.
CIS individual champions- '85-Bob Rice, '86,'87,'88-Halvorsen, '89-Charette, '90-Halvorsen. That's six consecutive titles from this group along with their three team titles (only Halvorsen and Charette were on all three championship teams).This post was edited by a Moderator [Issues] 6 years ago .Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Kevin, what I meant by my comment was that the five guys I mentioned were very talented runners and came to the U of O program having already put together impressive resumes. Of course they all trained hard for years prior to 86, but not much together. Actually 86 was the only season they all trained together, with John (as you mentioned) only occasionally joining the group (he had his own coach from Norway). The group's approach to training was second to none due in large part to our coach Denis Landry. He was a very calm, intelligent man and always knew what to say and when to say it to get the most out of his athletes. It wasn't my intention to discredit the training, simply I was trying to stress that these guys had the kind of talent to succeed under most any program. It's unfortunate that Bob had his legs crushed in a freak car accident (he was loading a tv in the back of a car when another car lost control coming down a slippery hill and pinned his legs between the bumpers). Had this not happened we would almost surely be talking about him as perhaps the greatest xc runner Canada had ever produced. He was that good!
Richard Simpson joined the team in 87 (he did a victory lap in HS). It was Rick Brant (1:47-800m runner) that was usually our 6th man.
CIS individual champions- '85-Bob Rice, '86,'87,'88-Halvorsen, '89-Charette, '90-Halvorsen. That's six consecutive titles from this group along with their three team titles (only Halvorsen and Charette were on all three championship teams)."
If the training worked for you guys back in 86' I am sure it still works today. I was wondering if I would be able to get trained by you since I am training alone and it is very hard to choose specific workouts and see imptovement or maybe we could get in contact? Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Ottawa U. 1986. John Halvorsen, Bob Rice, Alain Boucher, Richard Charette, and John's older brother Hokan. Maybe not fair to compare any team to this one as this is likely the best team all time. Four of the five were individual national champions in xc and/or 3km steeplechase."
old course record was just under 31 min for 10km and a lot of names ran that - including everyone you just listed there. Perhaps your memory is a little hazy and you actually ran this course back in the 1980s. Quote comment -
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Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"old course record was just under 31 min for 10km and a lot of names ran that - including everyone you just listed there. Perhaps your memory is a little hazy and you actually ran this course back in the 1980s."
And your point is? Times don't really mean that much in xc. Varying conditions and questionable accuracy of course distances render time comparisons somewhat useless. I can remember on more than one occasion when a National Open XC race boasting several 28/29 minute 10k runners had winning times that were over 39 minutes for 12k! Do the math, that isn't very fast!
My original post was simply me responding to another post pointing out that I had the opposite take on the results. He thought the race was competitive, my thought was it wasn't very competitive, unless the course was slow.
The U of O guys of that era never competed at the Western Invitational, so unless the course is the same as the one they used for the CIS champs in '86 none of these guys would have run the course. I really have no idea. Besides, comparing 10k xc times from 30 years ago to 8k times from yesterday is kind of pointless.
Finally, if you are questioning how good this team is consider the following. J. Halvorsen, Rice, and Boucher went 1, 2, 3 at both provincials and nationals in '86. Oldster, aka Steve Boyd, was 4th at OUs that year and he was always in mid 28 to low 29 shape in those days. There top 3 was very, very solid! Only a rookie at the time, Charette was still capable of running under 30 and H. Halvorsen was in low to mid 30 shape. I challenge you to come up with a CIS team that is/was stronger than this one. Also, with the exception of John (who was amazing) all these guys were considered to be especially good xc runners. Hell, I'm pretty sure Charette could run faster in 4 inches of mud than he could on the roads! Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Finally, if you are questioning how good this team is consider the following. J. Halvorsen, Rice, and Boucher went 1, 2, 3 at both provincials and nationals in '86. Oldster, aka Steve Boyd, was 4th at OUs that year and he was always in mid 28 to low 29 shape in those days. There top 3 was very, very solid! Only a rookie at the time, Charette was still capable of running under 30 and H. Halvorsen was in low to mid 30 shape. I challenge you to come up with a CIS team that is/was stronger than this one. Also, with the exception of John (who was amazing) all these guys were considered to be especially good xc runners. Hell, I'm pretty sure Charette could run faster in 4 inches of mud than he could on the roads!"
That was a different time period though... That's when you kids had to walk to school 10k every day in three feet of snow up hill both ways!!
Also comparing results in mid- September to championship races doesn't really seem logical. I'm sure if some big Gryphs were in the mix the pace might have been pushed. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
How is noone talking about the ladies race here? A 15 year old almost blew away the entire field, and Lucia Stafford looks poised to pick up right where her sister left off in a very impressive first outing as a freshman.
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User since:
May 27th, 2014
Posts: 206Groaker said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"How is noone talking about the ladies race here? A 15 year old almost blew away the entire field, and Lucia Stafford looks poised to pick up right where her sister left off in a very impressive first outing as a freshman."
Male dominated forum
Embarrassing because 15 year old illustrates lack of female development in CIS
Not a lot of posters from U of T visit this site, except when their coach Ross anonymously trolls his colleague. In fairness he did out himself eventually
Embarrassing because freshman illustrates lack of female development in CIS
Hosts likely don't want to draw attention to teenagers earning top placings at their International Invitational
It was only 5/8 of a race, too short to care
Focused on hyping up the amazing Vic Matthews XC fields
Trinity Western > non-Trinity Western
Skittles > Trump
8 > 5
TYP Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Groaker
"Male dominated forum
Embarrassing because 15 year old illustrates lack of female development in CIS
Not a lot of posters from U of T visit this site, except when their coach Ross anonymously trolls his colleague. In fairness he did out himself eventually
Embarrassing because freshman illustrates lack of female development in CIS
Hosts likely don't want to draw attention to teenagers earning top placings at their International Invitational
It was only 5/8 of a race, too short to care
Focused on hyping up the amazing Vic Matthews XC fields
Trinity Western > non-Trinity Western
Skittles > Trump
8 > 5
TYP"
Not that embarrassing. A freshman nearly won the NCAA women's XC race last year (Ostrander). There are also a number of high school girls in the US who would thump some NCAA stars if they lined up together. MacDougall and L Stafford would be very good athletes were they to compete in the NCAA.
Younger women are more able to dominate collegiate ranks because of 2 factors:
1. No distance increase, shorter race. High school girls race ~5k, no adjustment needed. It also takes less time to reach the higher echelons of performance for shorter distances. To be truly elite at 5k you do need to put in a lot of time, but it takes less time to get somewhat close to the top of your game.
2. Getting older doesn't confer any significant physiological advantage for women beyond increased amount of training in the bank. Girls tend to finish puberty earlier (13-15) and don't get a huge boost from testosterone when they do. Some will say getting older is a disadvantage because "teen girls are skinny," but this is probably more reflective of the fact that not many "skinny teen girls" last into college. Most collegiate females I know who were successful had similar body compositions during high school and university, or were slightly leaner in university.
Note: point 2 is general comment, not aimed at the athletes being discussed. Quote comment -
User since:
Sep 25th, 2013
Posts: 2707Oldster said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Not that embarrassing. A freshman nearly won the NCAA women's XC race last year (Ostrander). There are also a number of high school girls in the US who would thump some NCAA stars if they lined up together. MacDougall and L Stafford would be very good athletes were they to compete in the NCAA.
Younger women are more able to dominate collegiate ranks because of 2 factors:
1. No distance increase, shorter race. High school girls race ~5k, no adjustment needed. It also takes less time to reach the higher echelons of performance for shorter distances. To be truly elite at 5k you do need to put in a lot of time, but it takes less time to get somewhat close to the top of your game.
2. Getting older doesn't confer any significant physiological advantage for women beyond increased amount of training in the bank. Girls tend to finish puberty earlier (13-15) and don't get a huge boost from testosterone when they do. Some will say getting older is a disadvantage because "teen girls are skinny," but this is probably more reflective of the fact that not many "skinny teen girls" last into college. Most collegiate females I know who were successful had similar body compositions during high school and university, or were slightly leaner in university.
Note: point 2 is general comment, not aimed at the athletes being discussed."
These are fair comments (particularly re: the different race distances); but, it's worth noting that male freshmen (an odd formulation, that) typically do nearly as well at the top end in the NCAA as freshmen women. I don't know how many first year women have won NCAAs, but I know of at least two men-- Kennedy and Cheserek-- who have done it, and there have been quite a few top 10s over the years.
And in defense the current crop of CIS women, there has never been a 15 year old Canadian XC runner like Brogan (as a not quite 15 year old, she was second at OFSAA in a very strong senior girls field; she won the Youth Nationals race, and would certainly have been a factor in the Junior race, if allowed to run; on the track, she soloed the then second fastest ever Canadian high school 3k in winning the OFSAA junior title; on the roads, as a still 15 year old, she ran 16:29 in slow conditions).
As for Lucia, she's not much older, and she is almost unprecedentedly good for a CIS rookie; she just hadn't had a chance to prove how good she could be in XC since her track breakthrough this spring (and it looks like she will scale up, just like her celebrated sister.)*
CIS women's XC running could stand to improve, but it is as good or better than it's ever been in terms of both depth and top end quality. That Brogan and Lucia would be championship contenders says more about their unique abilities than it does the current state of our athlete development.
*At some point, I would love to see a friendly MacDougall vs. Stafford sister's match race over an in-between distance-- say, 6k. We'd all have to wear special protective clothing, however, in order to stand the intensity! These are fearsome competitors! Quote comment -
User since:
May 27th, 2014
Posts: 206Groaker said 6 years ago
Quoting: Oldster
"CIS women's XC running could stand to improve, but it is as good or better than it's ever been in terms of both depth and top end quality. That Brogan and Lucia would be championship contenders says more about their unique abilities than it does the current state of our athlete development. "
It would not be unreasonable to expect women who broke Junior 5,000m records in 2013 and 2014, or ran 32-high in early 2015, to have continued to improve and not only contend with these two youngsters in the fall of 2016, but quite possibly run away from them. Quote comment -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Groaker
"It would not be unreasonable to expect women who broke Junior 5,000m records in 2013 and 2014, or ran 32-high in early 2015, to have continued to improve and not only contend with these two youngsters in the fall of 2016, but quite possibly run away from them."
A very thinly veiled criticism of female development at Guelph? Edgy.
It might be worth considering that athletes can go through rough patches. Each of Petrick, Yungblut and Allison have had lengthy lay-offs due to injury recently and it would be unreasonable to expect them to be back at their top forms. I don't know what their training or health status is now, but their results from Western are respectable given that context. Quote comment -
User since:
Jun 8th, 2015
Posts: 1447Buddy said 6 years ago
There is no shame in getting beat by an athlete who (a) is VERY gifted in terms of genetics (b) works their ass off in training (c) has a VERY good coach
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it's called the "triple threat" -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Andrew Jones said 6 years ago
I don't think this era of CIS Women is weak. Let's use Western as an example, where their top runner's 5k time on Saturday was the fastest ever 5k XC by a Western female runner (beating a mark from 1987). Western's second and third runners were also under 18:00.
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Yes, I know we shouldn't use XC times as comparables, but the current crop of CIS women is quite strong, I think, relatively speaking.
But disappointing, once again, to see a 5k, and not an 8k Women's race. -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354 -
Anonymous
Posts: 57354Anonymous said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"A very thinly veiled criticism of female development at Guelph? Edgy.
It might be worth considering that athletes can go through rough patches. Each of Petrick, Yungblut and Allison have had lengthy lay-offs due to injury recently and it would be unreasonable to expect them to be back at their top forms. I don't know what their training or health status is now, but their results from Western are respectable given that context."
Just a little premature chatter post-Western International women's race, especially considering a Guelph female topped the Canadians in Louisville this past weekend. At CIS the race will be won in 6k instead of 5k. The female who best holds up the pace over the last km will take the race and I'm already seeing red instead of blue. Quote comment -
User since:
Sep 21st, 2016
Posts: 70CISchamp said 6 years ago
Quoting: Anonymous
"Just a little premature chatter post-Western International women's race, especially considering a Guelph female topped the Canadians in Louisville this past weekend. At CIS the race will be won in 6k instead of 5k. The female who best holds up the pace over the last km will take the race and I'm already seeing red instead of blue."
Guelph FTW eh? There was some pretty thick crowds to get through in Louisville, early placement helped a great deal Quote comment
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